learning keyboard to become a better guitarist

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by tbirdman

I started playing the guitar 3 years ago. I started to play the piano about a year ago. I was amazed how easier music theory was on the piano. However, it is harder with trying to read music for both hands. Then you have to learn the bass clef in addition to the treble clef. I had some music reading experience as I play the classical guitar in addition to the steel acoustic guitar.

I took 4 semesters of piano at a local community college. 3 semesters were course for music majors. I struggled, but I did have end up with excellent grades. i learned a lot of music theory from these classes. I now take weekly singing, guitar and piano lessons.

I took a guitar lesson from fairly well teacher. He thought learning the piano was a great foundation for learning the guitar as the piano was more difficult as you need to learn hand independence for the piano.

The other benefit of the piano is with singing with the ability to plunk a melody on the keyboard for songs I'm learning. I sold the cheap $100 keyboard I started with, moved onto a digital piano and now I play mostly a grand piano. Nothing beats a nice acoustic piano. Currently Bach is now kicking my butt!

Hi tbirdman
Yup, two hands is more than one, but I've always played guitar with both hands at the same time. In fact without either, it get quiet real quick.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rmoretti49

The OP's question is exactly what I have been wondering about for years. The replies so far are helpful to me in emphasizing the point that guitar technique can only come from playing guitar. But I suspect that many of us on the AGF, while wanting to improve our guitar playing, aren't really going to pursue the route of becoming guitar pros.

For me, I like to sing along with playing. And I like to write songs. But I have noticed that I tend to hit roadblocks when trying to actively create melodies. It would seem like a keyboard might be ideal in overcoming this obstacle.

I look forward to more relies to the OP.

Hi rmoretti
It's interesting that's what you take from what's been posted. (I don't think that has been the point of most posts at all.) The original question was not about learning guitar technique, but can learning keys make one a better guitarist.

As a multi-instrumentalist I can think in brass fingerings, piano fingerings, and guitar fingerings (and do). However, the biggest influences I learned from keyboards were not reading bass clef or other unique to keyboard techniques.

It was understanding music more fully as it applies to the construction of chords, melody, harmony, scales, keys and range as they apply to my singing, brass playing, guitar, and how I listen to (and figure out) what other musicians in an ensemble are doing and how I structure the instrument I'm on to fit well with them.

[rmoretti49]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi rmoretti
It's interesting that's what you take from what's been posted. (I don't think that has been the point of most posts at all.) The original question was not about learning guitar technique, but can learning keys make one a better guitarist.

As a multi-instrumentalist I can think in brass fingerings, piano fingerings, and guitar fingerings (and do). However, the biggest influences I learned from keyboards were not reading bass clef or other unique to keyboard techniques.

It was understanding music more fully as it applies to the construction of chords, melody, harmony, scales, keys and range as they apply to my singing, brass playing, guitar, and how I listen to (and figure out) what other musicians in an ensemble are doing and how I structure the instrument I'm on to fit well with them.

I must have expressed myself poorly, for I completely agree with the point of your posts.

[hubcapsc]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi hubcapsc
All my electronic keyboards have a 'transpose' button - the keyboard equivalent of the capo.

What the "piano capo" makes me think of is how we guitarists
can play a 1 4 5 song in C along with a piano player who can bang
away on the white keys. Then we could put a capo on the first fret
and play the song in C-sharp by playing the exact same thing. The
piano player must possess the skill to play different keys
and make all the chords differently.

-Mike "unless he has a transpose button "

[catt]

Keyboard - is an exceptional learning tool, especially for theoretical concepts. I'm also a ("celtic") harper, and i've used harp for its efficacy with children: The tactility is an exceptional asset in children's pedagogy.

[JackC1]

Originally Posted by broy

I do not have a desire to learn keyboard

I think you've answered your own question.

Piano and guitar are very different when I play them; skills almost don't transfer on the basic level.

OTOH, a ukulele can help you improve guitar (a guitar can also help you improve on the uke).

[catt]

One needn't "learn keyboard" technique in order to derive benefits of using a keyboard to learn theory.

[catt]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I have long thought that there is more music to be made and learned from a piano (or any keyboards), than on another other instrument. For one thing, you have 10 fingers to make individual notes with. No other instrument does that. And you learn harmony and chords - try doing that on a sax or trumpet! You can sing with it, unlike a clarinet or trombone. And you learn to play bass clef.

The assumptions here are that you are playing in one place only, as pianos are not portable. And if you substitute with a keyboard, you'll need electricity to make any sound. And you do not need to bend notes... And....

I don't play piano, but my wife and daughters do. They learned faster about these things than I did. Now would I be a better guitarist if I'd learned piano? Not sure, but I might be a better musician for it.

Rarely, if ever, are all ten fingers playing simultaneously, on a keyboard, but I get your point for sure. On woodwinds, frequently we use nine fingers, albeit without the traditional polyphony. In flamenco guitar, all five fingers of the right hand are used (on the left, the thumb can be deployed, as well).

Not just polyphony, but finger dexterity is foundational in piano/keybd, cl/flmco guitar, free bass accrdn, harp, etc. Harp is much like pn/kybd but mostly use first 4 fingers.

[Cecil6243]

Originally Posted by hubcapsc

I like comparing what little I know about both of them
and thinking about how they are the same but different.

You can't slap a capo on a piano...

-Mike

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by hubcapsc

You can't slap a capo on a piano...

Tricky to take it busking too. Or sit round a campfire with one. And you'd break your back if you tried putting a strap on one and wearing it.

(OK, no one mention the keytar now....)

[broy]

Thank you all, great conversation and really appreciate the input. I'll give it a go just for the chord structures, spacing etc... and see where it goes from there.

Capo... lol!

[tbirdman]

Originally Posted by hubcapsc

What the "piano capo" makes me think of is how we guitarists
can play a 1 4 5 song in C along with a piano player who can bang
away on the white keys. Then we could put a capo on the first fret
and play the song in C-sharp by playing the exact same thing. The
piano player must possess the skill to play different keys
and make all the chords differently.

-Mike "unless he has a transpose button "

Also, there's no black keys on a fretboard.

Although there are advantages such as playing some chords can be easier on a keyboard like B, Bm or Bb. And you use a capo to move to a "higher" key, but you can't move the capo past the nut on a fretboard. Plus the notes/chords in different octaves are very easy to find on a keyboard.

I still think the advantages are the opening up the world of music theory. I hope eventually I will get to the point when I can play sight see a score and play in real time.

[TBman]

I think learning the keyboard is a great idea.

[jwellsy]

Growing up, an aunt of mine always amazed me with her piano playing. She played at church several times a week and with several gospel groups. She rarely looked at the music and always played way more notes than what were on the pages. I asked her one time how she does that, play so many extra notes. She said it's all about practicing and knowing scales. If you know your scales, every note in sheet music can be a scale or part of a scale.

Several years ago I used to really enjoy watching Scott Houston (ThePianoGuy) on PBS. He has a lot of cool piano moves. He has a bunch of Youtubes you may enjoy checking out. I'm sure there's plenty of others, but this guy is pretty special.
https://www.youtube.com/user/pianoguytv

[jwellsy]

Doggonnit, this thread has me thinking about getting a keyboard. It may help me work out a songs groove and chord change timings before trying it on a guitar.

So far, I haven't found the right one. I assume that keyboards are like everything else where it takes $500 to get something decent. I've been looking in the $500 - $750 range. I'm thinking known brand name (like Yamaha or Roland), 54 or 61 semi weighted keys (not enough room for 88 keys), decent internal speakers, sustain pedal, headphone jack, midi out, key octave shifter.

Suggestions?