Help me better understand Improvisation

[guitarjamman]

I have been playing for a little over 10 years, I know a decent amount of theory and how scales apply to chords. I have played in bands and spent all my free weekends in college jamming with my buddy. I "feel" like I should know how this works - I have put my time in and done my due diligence in trying to understand the key to improv. soloing "in the moment". I know I have all the skills and coordination to do it, but it seems like my head always gets in the way!

I have a load of questions, but to try and keep people from shying away, please answer any question you can or feel comfortable answering:

1.) Do you hear the notes in your head while soloing? How many notes ahead of your current one do you hear, or are you just thinking of the overall "road map" of how you want your solo to sound? For example, do you hum the solo in your mind WHILE you are playing it, or is it more of a "Man, I am playing along to this chord - when the next change comes, I will start my build up".

2.) I do not have to look at the fretboard while soloing - I can close my eyes and "see" it. Thay being said, my mind kind of "lights up" the notes/frets either in the scale or chord shape for the current section I am playing over. If the chord progression is a simple E, A, D; then when the E chord comes, I can visualize the E-major scale and light up the frets, quickly "see" the A-major scale when the chord change happens and not have to move my hand position to play in the new scale formation. Is "seeing" the fret board light up holding me back? I have a boundary automatically set by "lighting up" the notes and know that the non lit notes will not fit too well, unless i am trying to make a chromatic run. How do you "see" what you hear in your head on the fretboard? Do you light up notes (or know what notes you can and cannot play to get your desired sound), or is it that you know how to play what you want to hear?

3.) If I want to begin to "hear" the solo while I am playing it, what would be the best course of action? Lately, I will hum out a little ditty that I think sounds cool, and then through trial and error, pick it out on the guitar. If this is the way to "improv", what percentage of your solo is built on you hearing the notes, and how much is dedicated to an old familiar lick you can incorporate? After a few measures while soloing, it tend to fall back to my old licks based on the chord being played, or light up the fret board and play around in my "safe" zone.

4.) Any tips on how to break out of my current scale runs? For instance, when I was learning scales, I learned 5 different positions and then understood how to connect them together to get the whole scale up and down the entire neck. These are the notes that I "light-up" depending on the chord being played. But the trouble I find is that I tend to get stuck playing in these 5 different patterns, and use one or two little downward or upward runs to get me into the next pattern. I have a hard time using the entire neck or finding good runs that make horizontal moves as opposed to vertical ones.

Thanks for any information you can provide. I feel like there is a players secret that I am just on the verge of finding out to help me break down this wall, but no one can really verbalize it well enough to help me get there.

[JohnDWilliams]

Song melodies tend to be in one key. The key doesn't change for every chord so the scale shouldn't change either. You sometimes have accidentals that a chord is embellished to follow but the key center generally stays the same.

Improvisation needs to work this way too. Don't visualize the E major scale for E chords and the A major scale for A chords. You are improvising MELODIES and changing the scale that way is going to get you to some notes that probably aren't true to the song's basic melody.

You need to get to a place where you know what any given note will sound like before you play it. This has to become something you don't think about. Based on your "visualize" comment you are making heavy use of patterns. This an okay way to get there. You have to play a LOT so that you have instant knowledge of what any given note in the pattern will sound like.

In order to make music flow out you need to have music inside your head in the first place. Your practice of humming a phrase then playing it is a good exercise. This is pretty much how improvising works - musical ideas flow out of your head while you listen to them and that triggers other ideas to flow out.

[slewis]

Cool post!

1. I don't read music at all and aside from knowing lots of basic chord structures and shapes, the notes of the strings and the notes on the fretboard (some quicker than others), I am pretty much clueless as to music notation and theory and transcription. However, I've played by ear for forty years or so and can and do improvise solos all day long -- not anything that you'd mistake for Eddie Van Halen or Roy Clark, but performance worthy, apparently, as I do gig a lot. But I've always been pretty mystified by the fact that the improv I do just kind of comes to me as I play -- with no more than a note or two of "advance warning." It's really amazing, and I know many other can do it in a far more advanced way than I can. But that's not the amazing part -- it's the fact that this music comes to you, through you and your hands and then through your guitar, hopefully to a listener's ears, that's just an amazing mental process. Whatever level I'm at, I've gotten there by playing for years by myself to records, tapes, CDs, radio, etc. So to your question... Yes, I know the pathway of where a song is going, and the notes that work with that structure just come out, usually with a nice result. I don't get how it works, but it works!

2. That's VERY cool, and you described it well. If I knew my notes and theory better, I might hope to be able to visualize the "light-up" fretboard as you do. And I can imagine that's a very cool process and experience, to be able to see that in your mind.

On 3 and 4, I don't know that I have much to offer. But I know others will here! Should be an interesting thread....

[BluesBelly]

Good advice given.

Another consideration is the warehouse of licks in your mind. The more licks and chops you know the easier it is to improvise by stringing them together. Listen to lots of music in the genre in which you play. Pick out the licks you like and learn them. It doesn't have to be a note for note copy. Many good players have "their" sound which in part is determined by the lead solos they play. Think BB King, Albert King, Lightnin' Hopkins, and the list goes on.

You get the drift. A good way to practice this: Play a measure or two of chord then play a measure or two of lead lick then keep it going in the same fashion. This allows you to hear how the licks and chops sound with specific chords. You will soon learn what sounds good with what. This method of play also makes for good accompanyment for blues. Also move the licks around the fretboard learning to play them in several different positions.

Blues



Blues

[bayoubill]

I know an exercise you can do. Sing a phrase in you heard or out loud. Start simple. Now play it on your guitar. Sing a similar phrase and then play it on your guitar. Repeat often

[donh]

Instead of focusing on "The Solo", try focusing on the song itself.

What would it take to enhance the song and whatever it's saying?

Things may get obvious from there . . . . . .

.

[Doug Young]

Since it's improvising, almost by definition, everyone probably does it differently, thinks differently, etc. But one analogy I've found useful may help with a few of your questions. That's simply "talking". Every time you have a conversation with someone, you are "improvising". You're probably saying something you've never said before, exactly. Yet, you are almost certainly using words, and even entire phrases that you've said many times before. You may even be expressing an idea you've expressed before, but perhaps not using the exact same words as the last time. So, compare this to some of the things you're asking. Are you thinking a few words ahead while you're talking? Are you hearing what you're going to say before you say it? Maybe, at a certain level. but it's probably subconscious in most cases. You may even be surprised once in a while to hear what comes out of your mouth :-) But you may have a few stock phrases you use, idioms of speech, maybe even a few pre-rehearsed sentences if the conversation is about something important enough that you've planned it out ahead. But mostly, you're saying something on the fly, yet, probably using even full phrases you've used before. Just scanning this paragraph, I know I haven't typed this exact message before, but lots of phrases leap out: "on the fly", "some of the things", "idioms of speech", so those are "licks" I have memorized, groups of words I can pull out without having to think about each one individually. One thing we don't do when talking is stick to prescribed sequences. We don't recite the alphabet, or read the dictionary, or practice a series of nouns or verbs. You had to learn all that stuff, and just like learning scales, it's useful to know. But reciting the alphabet or conjugating verbs relates to having a conversation about the same way as being able to run scales relates to improvising music.

So ideally, to me, at least, improvisation is like having a conversation. How do you get there? I'd say pretty much the same way we learned to speak. Some formal study, learning to diagram sentences, or how to organize a speech, or have a debate, or give a presentation is useful. But the real key is tons of real world practice, both talking yourself (and being corrected when you're a kid), and hearing others talk. We pick up phrases, words, and ways to use them all the time. You can do the same with guitar. A great exercise I recall reading about from someone (Lee Ritenour, maybe?) was to take a simple lick you like. Could be three notes. Learn it. Now learn it in 12 keys. Now play it backwards, upside down. Try it against different chords. Change the rhythm, keep the rhythm and change the notes. Play it fast, play it slow. Make it bluesy. If its major, see if you can create a minor version, and vice-versa. That 3 note lick quickly becomes 100s of licks. Do that every day for a year, and you'll know thousands and thousands of licks, to the point that they all blur together, and you can't even recall them all, but they become your "vocabulary", just like the vocabulary you use for speaking. And of course, just as you studied a bit about language in school (what's a noun, what's a verb, sentence structure, etc), studying a bit of theory helps, and it can help to figure out how theory applies to that lick each day. What chord does it go against? Why does it work and why did you like it enough to pick it out to work on? And so on. Do all that for a while, and you won't even be able to say if you're thinking of notes or scales or chords, or thinking ahead, or singing what you plan to play. You'll just be playing the same way you talk.

Enough rambling. Hope that helps

[billder99]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Since it's improvising, almost by definition, everyone probably does it differently, thinks differently, etc.... Do all that for a while, and you won't even be able to say if you're thinking of notes or scales or chords, or thinking ahead, or singing what you plan to play. You'll just be playing the same way you talk.

Doug,

This is a really powerful bit of wisdom. Your description of learning improv as a language really strikes home for me. I struggle with the same things as the OP... I seem unable to break out of the mediocrity of my improv. You have given me much to work on. Thanks!!!

BD

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by guitarjamman

I have been playing for a little over 10 years, I know a decent amount of theory and how scales apply to chords. I have played in bands and spent all my free weekends in college jamming with my buddy. I "feel" like I should know how this works - I have put my time in and done my due diligence in trying to understand the key to improv. soloing "in the moment". I know I have all the skills and coordination to do it, but it seems like my head always gets in the way!

I have a load of questions, but to try and keep people from shying away, please answer any question you can or feel comfortable answering:

1.) Do you hear the notes in your head while soloing?

Sometimes, not always. Usually I hear rhythms first, and the actual notes can be vague (less important).

Originally Posted by guitarjamman

How many notes ahead of your current one do you hear, or are you just thinking of the overall "road map" of how you want your solo to sound? For example, do you hum the solo in your mind WHILE you are playing it, or is it more of a "Man, I am playing along to this chord - when the next change comes, I will start my build up".

The question of a "build up" is a different issue. That's like the "macro" level of a solo, it's overall shape. The "micro" level is the notes and rhythms.
Usually I'm thinking "micro", because not all solos require things like "build-ups" (slow changes in intensity or volume). Some solos are just short things, 8 bars or so, all at the same level.
In general, what I'm trying to do (consciously) is play phrases with clear melodic and rhythmic content. So I'll have some idea of the shape of the phrase I want to play, but not its precise notes. They usually come from my theoretical knowledge about what I know will fit.
Having said that, I do have a knowledge of how individual notes sound against a chord: eg, the effect of a 6th, sus4, maj7 or 9th. So I know whether I want to use those effects at that moment or not. Sometimes I like to milk the effect of single "sweet" extensions on a chord, sometimes I'm just going for a groove.

Originally Posted by guitarjamman

2.) I do not have to look at the fretboard while soloing - I can close my eyes and "see" it. Thay being said, my mind kind of "lights up" the notes/frets either in the scale or chord shape for the current section I am playing over. If the chord progression is a simple E, A, D; then when the E chord comes, I can visualize the E-major scale and light up the frets, quickly "see" the A-major scale when the chord change happens and not have to move my hand position to play in the new scale formation. Is "seeing" the fret board light up holding me back?

Not at all. Except that you shouldn't be thinking of the major scale of each chord in that scenario!
IOW, your fretboard knowledge and approach sounds ideal, but your theoretical understanding may be flawed. (I hope you know that you don't switch to a different scale for each chord, except in unusual circumstances - ie when certain chords demand it.)

Originally Posted by guitarjamman

I have a boundary automatically set by "lighting up" the notes and know that the non lit notes will not fit too well, unless i am trying to make a chromatic run.

Right.
Most "inside" = chord tones (arpeggio)
Less "inside" = diatonic scale notes (chord extensions within the key)
Most "outside" = chromatic notes (outside both chord and key)

Originally Posted by guitarjamman

How do you "see" what you hear in your head on the fretboard? Do you light up notes (or know what notes you can and cannot play to get your desired sound), or is it that you know how to play what you want to hear?

I don't think about that kind of distinction.
I mean, I know what key I'm in (ie what key the chord progression is in), and I can spot chromatic chords and understand what effect they have - both on the chord progression and my choice of notes.
I know complete arpeggios, all over the neck, for any chord I encounter, so I can work from chord tones anywhere I choose.
How much I use chromatics depends partly on the kind of song it is. If it's jazz I'll be using a lot, quite freely (usually as approaches to chord tones, perhaps ignoring the local key scale). If it's blues, I'll be using a tightly prescribed generic set of chromatics (and bends of course) - IOW, normal blues language. If it's pop/rock ballad I may use no chromatics at all.

IOW, my knowledge is a mix of what you might call "theoretical", and visual in terms of patterns on the fretboard. It's the chord shapes and arpeggios that "light up" for me. In those terms, I'd say the chord of the moment is brightest, but the chords either side are visible too - because they provide the common passing notes, as well as the shape of the next chord.
I rarely think in scales.

Originally Posted by guitarjamman

3.) If I want to begin to "hear" the solo while I am playing it, what would be the best course of action? Lately, I will hum out a little ditty that I think sounds cool, and then through trial and error, pick it out on the guitar.

That's a good start. You should also try the reverse: pick a note and hum it. Play a phrase (without humming it first) and sing it back.
Build up to trying to sing each note as you play it. That would be slow at first, but that's OK.

Bear in mind, this is not essential. It's a nice way of keeping your solos intelligible and musical (especially if you have a tendency to noodle aimlessly), but of course the guitar has a much bigger range than your voice, and just occasionally it sounds good to let the instrument take flight where no voice can go (or at least where no untrained voice can easily go ).
The idea is that ALL melody is voice-based. We connect with melody by imagining ourselves singing it, even if that's technically impossible. So while you don't want to blind listeners with science (ridiculously fast torrents of notes, that leave listeners disconnected), you do often want to make them feel they can transcend their natural limits. This melody is something you WOULD sing if only you could!

Originally Posted by guitarjamman

If this is the way to "improv", what percentage of your solo is built on you hearing the notes, and how much is dedicated to an old familiar lick you can incorporate?

It varies. In blues, I might be using a lot of familiar licks (ones I could easily sing along to while playing, if I felt like it). In other music, less so, although I do have some favourite kinds of approach to chords such as maj7s. I don't have a problem with cliche, if it's meaningful. (It's always worth remembering that cliches become cliches because they have a special power and impact.)

Originally Posted by guitarjamman

After a few measures while soloing, it tend to fall back to my old licks based on the chord being played, or light up the fret board and play around in my "safe" zone.

Right. That's usually an issue about letting your fingers run the show, because you have no fresh ideas. I certainly have moments like that.
As I said, sometimes tried-and-tested cliche licks are just what is required, eg, to lay over a nice groove. It's about the whole sound of the band at that moment: what can I add that won't actually detract from what they're laying down? Do I actually need to play anything at all?
I listen and wait for something in the sound to "kick" me ("hey come on!"). It could be something rhythmic as well as something melodic.

As the Buddhist saying has it:
"Before you speak, ask yourself: Is it kind, is it true, is it necessary, does it improve upon the silence?"

"Kind" and "true" may have debatable applications to music, but the rest is right on the money. Miles Davis would certainly have approved...

[cont below ]

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by guitarjamman

4.) Any tips on how to break out of my current scale runs? For instance, when I was learning scales, I learned 5 different positions and then understood how to connect them together to get the whole scale up and down the entire neck. These are the notes that I "light-up" depending on the chord being played. But the trouble I find is that I tend to get stuck playing in these 5 different patterns, and use one or two little downward or upward runs to get me into the next pattern. I have a hard time using the entire neck or finding good runs that make horizontal moves as opposed to vertical ones.

Stop thinking about SCALES!
Like Charlie Parker said, "forget em and all and just play". Of course that presupposes that you have some kind of ideas, some kind of musical imagination. (I'm guessing you do, but you need to remove scales and scale patterns from your consciousness as much as you can. Think about something else, anything else.)
The first thing you should do with any song you plan on improvising on is learn to play the vocal melody. The vocal melody (tune and lyrics) IS the song. Without that, you just have a chord sequence, which could be anything. Someone could sing the tune with no accompaniment, it would still be the same song. (If it's an instrumental tune, then presumably you can play that anyway.)
Treat the melody as an ideal "solo prepared earlier". The classic jazz improvisation advice was always "let the melody be your guide". Improvisation begins not from scales or even chord tones, but from embellishing the melody. Obviously that maintains the connection with the voice, while also preserving the identity of the song (making this solo sound different from another song which might have the same chord sequence). It also makes for a strong connection with an audience, because they will hear the logic of what you're doing, rather than some guitarist showing off his chops.

Originally Posted by guitarjamman

Thanks for any information you can provide. I feel like there is a players secret that I am just on the verge of finding out to help me break down this wall, but no one can really verbalize it well enough to help me get there.

I'm always posting this guy's videos, but I do think he's the most inspiring speaker on improvisation that I've heard on the net. He's talking jazz, of course (and arguably old-fashioned jazz at that), but I find the concepts resonate for all styles of music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_7DgCrziI8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NehOx1JsuT4

[Bob Womack]

HERE is an article I wrote up on the business of improvising, the mental and physical tasks associated with it, and how to get there. Maybe it will help you understand it a wee bit better!

Bob

[JanVigne]

I think it would be best to make the distinction between performing a solo and true improvisation. As performed, a solo is rather well planned out and follows a line of thought which is based on establishing tension or a need for resolution and then reaching that resolution. A solo within a 12 bar blues has a certain amount of time and space to accomplish its goals and will follow along rather familiar lines of craftsmanship. Thus we have all of the "Play like ... " articles which describe the tendencies of a certain player to rely on familiar techniques which provide their signature sound.

A jam improv is somewhat different since the structure of the piece is open ended and may involve several player's contributions which build upon one another. Your section, or sections, may involve only a few bars or a few minutes of play. It is therefore most important you simply listen to what is going on around you. As Doug Young suggested this sort of playing is quite a but like having a conversation except, I would say, the improv is not a vocal conversation but one like this, typed out and your thought process in the two forms is somewhat dissimilar. In a vocal conversation you speak and effective words flow freely. You're thinking of the entire point you must make and how to get there. You may back up a few times to make clear what you have already said or you may decide to ask a question which clarifies your listener's acceptance.

As you type, you've had a moment to consider the post a while and you post with your mind moving forward ahead of your fingers just slightly to form sentences which you make up and slightly adjust just before you strike the key or play the note. The real distinction I would say is how you plan out what you are intending to say. And, like your typed post, there aren't really "wrong" words, there is only improper context. If you are paying attention to what you are playing, you can strike virtually any note within a scale and make it sound correct if you don't stop to draw attention to what you've done. Free yourself up to think a wrong note can be bent to, slid to, hammered on to or pulled off from to create a right note. Understanding you have the freedom to hit any note and then make your improv about making that note sound intentional is a different way to approach the thought process of playing. You are no longer constrained to only those notes which "light up" but to those notes which sound interesting in the context of the work. That doesn't mean you play all notes with no plan, just that you aren't tied to only notes you know you've played before to make pretty music. Once you've hit that wrong note, then you come back to it and make it part of the next pass through which says to the listener this is what you meant to say. So listening to yourself and always being ready to turn a turd into a cookie is one of the best ways to succeed at improv.

Unless you are very proficient at your craft, you'll have to rely on patterns and stock phrases to some extent. You are under no obligation to sound as if you've just read a "Play like ..., " article and, unless your intention is to sound like "... ", you need to take that information and apply it to new forms using the concepts more than the note for note transcriptions. I would agree you need to dismiss "pattern playing" as quickly as possible. This doesn't mean you don't play patterns, you just don't think in mechanical patterns. To be good at this you'll need ear training, what sounds go along to make a Major scale, a minor scale and pentatonic scale, etc. Playing each scale from one root to another root across and up and down the neck or on one string until you are familiar with where your fingers must fall to accomplish a whole step or half step will allow you to play patterns which do not sound like patterns. They should sound as if you are typing out a response to some statement made in the music.

Of course, if your goal is shredding as fast as possible, then you will follow the all too familiar patterns which are all too familiar to all shred fans. Nothing else seems to matter in this genre IMO.

Otherwise, I think if you approach your work as "I have a starting point and a resolution point", you will begin to hear what needs to be played at any one time. Change which beat of the measure you begin on and notice the difference a simple one beat difference makes to the statement you are making. Keep it simple, you don't need to play every change unless that is demanded of the genre in which you are working. Above all, listen - listen to those who have done this before and to those with whom you are playing. Stealing ideas in music is hardly a bad thing if you can take the idea and then make it your own. Famous players call these "influences" and they steal all they like from their influences.

Sounding as if you are out there all on your own is another style of play all together. Nothing wrong with that style of play but you can't expect most people to follow you when they have no idea where it is you intend to go

[jseth]

Sing the line AS YOU PLAY IT... Try to hear a line/melody inside of yourself and then play those notes... slow going, at first, and you may even have to sing the note AFTER you play it to get going, but after a bit of work at this, you will begin to "hear" a line in your head and translate it to the guitar... then, just keep listening to that "inside melody" and follow it...

Certainly, it's all about the song, to my mind at least... Searching for, reaching for that line inside of me, keeps the "solo" in the conversational mode (GREAT reply by Doug Young!). Any time I start to feel my playing is getting stale or "wanking" (that's a technical term, by the way!), the key for me is to listen to what's going on inside of me, as it relates to the song I'm playing... and play THAT!

Expand your use of intervals; force yourself to "jump around" within a scale or form to S P R E A D the intervals...

Push yourself to create longer lines; go past your comfort zone. The more you do this, the more natural it becomes...

There are many different ways to look at soloing to a given song... Ornette Coleman spoke of "Harmelodics", his way of playing to a tune... which involves playing THE WAY YOU FEEL about the song; doing this will help you avoid sounding the same, time after time... after all, you don't feel the same way about the same song from day to day, right? Heck, Ornetter's method does not even involve playing in the same key signature as the song being played!!! Not if you don't feel it...

Just regurgitating licks and phrases that you've learned and practised is not what I would call soloing/improvisation... it's all about the tune and the melody and how you choose to support/define/augment it...

Personally, I have never been interested in playing "exactly" like someone else; you know, learning Eric Clapton's solo from "Crossroads", note for note... I certainly enjoy a lot of different players (of guitar and other instruments), and I have taken ideas and feels from them... then I use those in MY OWN WAY to get the sounds I want to hear.

Realize that a lot of your favorite "solos" on songs may just be licks that have been learned and practised, then stuck together within the 16 bars designated for the solo... many of those are quite memorable, and probably were being played in that manner, for the first time when the recording was made... this is truer of older Rock, Jazz and Blues tunes, I think.

Congratulations! Sounds like you are getting very close to sounding just "like YOU"; recognizing the goal is a big step in getting there...

What I am looking for in my guitar playing is to be able to express myself through the instrument, fully and completely...

[toddkreuz]

Really cool reading all the great explainations and analogies here.

Great job everyone

[JanVigne]

"There are many different ways to look at soloing to a given song... Ornette Coleman spoke of "Harmelodics", his way of playing to a tune... which involves playing THE WAY YOU FEEL about the song; doing this will help you avoid sounding the same, time after time... after all, you don't feel the same way about the same song from day to day, right? Heck, Ornetter's method does not even involve playing in the same key signature as the song being played!!! Not if you don't feel it...

Just regurgitating licks and phrases that you've learned and practised is not what I would call soloing/improvisation... it's all about the tune and the melody and how you choose to support/define/augment it...

Personally, I have never been interested in playing "exactly" like someone else; you know, learning Eric Clapton's solo from "Crossroads", note for note... "




I don't think Clapton is either. Of course, he always said he played that solo wrong when it became a hit and people had come to expect him to always make the same mistake. Listening to Clapton play his great hit, however, is a somewhat interesting exercise in day to day feelings about a well known solo. It didn't take long for Clapton to begin altering that solo to suit his mood and over the years that same solo has taken many forms while remaining essentially true to the fortunate mistake he had made decades earlier. Dissecting his many takes on the same song might be an interesting lesson in how to create what you hear in your head today and what you might want to change tomorrow.