A neglected 1969 Gibson LG-0 [completed 2023-05-14]

jaywalker · #1 01-26-2023, 01:01 PM

I have a 1969 Gibson LG-0 that was abandoned in an attic years ago. It's in pretty rough shape, and needs a lot of work to make it playable. I'm no luthier, but in this condition I think the cost to pay for repair would be way more than what it's worth. So I figure I've got nothing to lose by wrenching on it myself. Then I'll have a neat beater.

Pictures linked at the bottom of the post.

As far as I can tell these are the problems I'd need to address in order of necessity:

* Top bellying is such that action is unplayable.
* Several cracks in the top that will need glued + cleated.
* Some internal bracing is loose and needs reglued (doing this after fixing the top because presumably they would help the cracks stay shut).
* Probably needs a neck reset, will be able to tell once the bellying is fixed.
* Some fret wear, might be able to live with this.

My planned course of action is as follows:

* Install a bridge doctor with the brass pins to fix the bellying.
* Clean out the top cracks, use a fixture to squeeze the sides while the glue inside dries then cleat the cracks with "magnet clamps" holding them in place.
* Reglue the braces as best I can, maybe popping them out and sanding both surfaces first.
* Kung-fu neck reset, cutting off the neck at the heel (and heating off the fretboard extension). Then converting it to a bolt-on neck with threaded inserts.
* I don't have tools to do fret work, so if I get to this point and cannot live with the fret wear I'll just pay someone to do it. I can live with putting $100-200 in to this for fun but not more than that.

Any thoughts or suggestions on my approach? I've linked pictures of the guitar in question. As far as I can tell the neck is straight, the truss rod isn't maxed out, so it should at least be *possible* to get this thing playing again. Or am I wasting my time on this one?

ssstewart · #2 01-26-2023, 02:19 PM

I think she is Beautiful!!! any restoration would be a labor of love. Bringing new life back to this beauty is a wonderful idea, think of the stories this guitar could tell, and she probably still has many more songs within her.

I have restored many guitars from 150 yrs old to 20 year old guitars, some were as a labor of love for myself or clients and others as investments. I am not a luthier in any way shape or form but i have learned a few things over the last 40 years.

i am in love with that finish. Crackle/alligator and all its scars.... keep that in tact. Based on the pictures which are limited, it does not appear that a reset would be in order ( but can only speculate without holding it in my hands). if it does, i defintely wouldnt do a re set by cutting it off and bolting it ( please

)

before you do anything (imo) i would hydrate that guitar first: this will limber up those braces and possibly close the gap some on the cracks and may help with the belly up you describe ( remember some belly up is good and expected in a 50 year old + guitar) i cant tell by the pics if the bridge is actually lifting so ill refrain from advice there. again hydrating her sloooowwwwlly in a case with a git humidifier or something as simple as a damp sponge in a soap dish will help alot with what i mentioned above. check her and the sponge every couple days to evaluate the progress and see if any positive impact to the crack gap/belly up/braces retruning somewhat to where they should be ( ultimately it will help in making them more flexible to do any brace work you decide to do) youll easily be able to tell if it becoming hydrated when you open the case as the smell is one of my favorite when starting on a dried out old guitar ( she will start to breathe again

once you are satified that she is hydrated you will be able to properly evaluate what needs to be done moving forward ( cleats/braces/bridge/top etc)

again she is BEAUTIFUL, enjoy the journey of bringing it back to life

redir · #3 01-26-2023, 03:21 PM

It's not terrible. But you are correct that the repair would cost more then the guitar is worth. That is if your assessment is correct and that it needs a neck reset and obvious top repairs, probably loose braces as well I'd imagine.

JonWint · #4 01-27-2023, 10:01 AM

Initial inspection requires several measurements: neck relief, belly height from center of bridge to body edges (transverse), height of frets, neck angle without and later with strings.

I don't see a belly problem. Bridge rotation is minimal; less than 1 degree. Bridge Doctor is rarely the answer to reduce a belly if guitar wasn't designed for it. If your guitar top doesn't develop a concave and convex "S" curve either side of the bridge (longitudinally), it's too stiff.

Humidify and glue top cracks and braces. DON'T remove braces to reglue.

Do a proper neck reset or sell the guitar to someone who will.

Provide measurements for more detailed recommendations. Until that time please put the tools down before cutting the neck off.

jaywalker · #5 01-27-2023, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonWint

Initial inspection requires several measurements: neck relief, belly height from center of bridge to body edges (transverse), height of frets, neck angle without and later with strings.

I don't see a belly problem. Bridge rotation is minimal; less than 1 degree. Bridge Doctor is rarely the answer to reduce a belly if guitar wasn't designed for it. If your guitar top doesn't develop a concave and convex "S" curve either side of the bridge (longitudinally), it's too stiff.

Humidify and glue top cracks and braces. DON'T remove braces to reglue.

Do a proper neck reset or sell the guitar to someone who will.

Provide measurements for more detailed recommendations. Until that time please put the tools down before cutting the neck off.

Thank you (and everyone else) for your evaluations. I'll get those measurements here eventually, may take few couple weeks as I'm not home with spare strings or my tools.

So I guess the short-term to do list is:
* Humidify guitar for a few weeks.
* Take measurements above with & without strings.
* Fix cracks and reglue braces (probably with fish glue as it's the easiest thing I'll be able to work with that isn't wood glue or the "liquid hide glue" stuff I've heard horror stories about).
* Take measurements again I suppose?

For what it's worth regarding the bellying, the last time this guitar had strings on it was at least 5 years ago and it does seem that the belly has reduced considerably (from what I remember) since just sitting in a closet un-strung. Guess we'll see what happens under tension. I just remember last time it was strung, the action was miles high with a large belly and the adjustable saddle is already bottomed out. Doesn't mean I couldn't take a bit off the bottom of it still, but I'll cross that bridge if necessary or make a new bone saddle.

redir · #6 01-27-2023, 03:47 PM

Fish glue is nice too becasue it gives you plenty of open time to work with when reaching inside a guitar. But Titebond is also a very good choice. In any case you would want to make sure you clean the surfaces to be bonded well. I have a very thin spatula that I laminate sand paper too and get in under the brace and top and clean it up. Don't be surprised when you try that and the brace pops right off. Then you can very easily clean it

You might need to buy or make clamps that have a long reach to get inside the guitar.

Kenny B · #7 01-28-2023, 02:21 PM

Don't know if this helps but I have a similar guitar for sale now here on AGF.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=645824

Perhaps listening to what it might sound like will help you decide on what to do. The biggest drawback IMO is the narrow nut width, which is still not a deal breaking factor considering many of use play mandolins with narrow nuts... this is not that bad, but not optimal for most.

jaywalker · #8 01-28-2023, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny B

Don't know if this helps but I have a similar guitar for sale now here on AGF.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=645824

Perhaps listening to what it might sound like will help you decide on what to do. The biggest drawback IMO is the narrow nut width, which is still not a deal breaking factor considering many of use play mandolins with narrow nuts... this is not that bad, but not optimal for most.

Thank you for sharing, your guitar looks and sounds fantastic! Really impressive condition for being so old, it looks like it's hardly been played at all.

I'm a little curious about how my example will sound because it's got a spruce top, which are much less common. I also confirmed that the back is definitely laminate (you can see the layers) so it's not quite the same material quality as the earlier versions.

I don't expect to ever be able to sell it for much considering the condition, another 1969 spruce top version went for $790 on eBay somewhat recently in much better condition. That's kinda why I don't feel so bad trying to fix it up myself just to have another neat guitar to play, nobody's ever going to get their money back on this one which might go for $500 *after* all the work it needs.

The nut is another interesting point, this one has a 1-9/16" nut! So I might come to hate it after being used to 1-11/16". We'll see once I get some strings on it.

downtime · #9 01-29-2023, 08:25 AM

Since this guitar has no back binding you might want to consider removing the back for easy access to all the repairs.
Repairing cracks and loose braces through the sound hole can be challenging

jaywalker · #10 02-01-2023, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by downtime

Since this guitar has no back binding you might want to consider removing the back for easy access to all the repairs.
Repairing cracks and loose braces through the sound hole can be challenging

I appreciate the suggestion, but with my relative dirth of tools I don't think removing the back is going to make anything easier

Fortunately the problem braces are very close to the sound hole.

On that topic, the guitar is still hydrating and I've seen maybe a small change in geometry but I'm going to let it go another week or more before I start gluing anything.

I'm planning the brace repairs, and there's two categories of problem I see. In the first case, the brace has come loose and the little end that goes under the kerfed lining has broken off. To fix this I'm anticipating gluing the brace down, and affixing a small wooden extension so that it still has some grab underneath the kerfed lining (top diagram).

The second category is a brace that has short cracks (at both ends no less) which I'll glue shut and reinforce with cleats on each side of the brace (bottom diagram).

Anyone see a problem with these approaches or suggest a better approach?

redir · #11 02-03-2023, 01:50 PM

Reglue together the cracked brace in the below diagram and that should be good enough. IOW sister cleats are not necessary. The plan of the upper diagram is sound imo. These are the upper arms of the X-Brace then?

Other thing you could consider just removing the kerfed lining and adding a new one on top of it.

jaywalker · #12 02-03-2023, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redir

Reglue together the cracked brace in the below diagram and that should be good enough. IOW sister cleats are not necessary. The plan of the upper diagram is sound imo. These are the upper arms of the X-Brace then?

Other thing you could consider just removing the kerfed lining and adding a new one on top of it.

Thanks for the confirmation.

The LG-0 is a ladder braced guitar, the ones that have popped loose are the closest to the bottom of the sound hole on the top and back. I'll consider removing the kerfing and reinstalling it if I can fit some appropriate cutting tool in there, that's a good suggestion.

jaywalker · #13 02-14-2023, 09:12 PM

I've started on the repairs, getting cracked braces glued up and whatnot. Thinking about the next steps...

For anyone keeping score (@JonWint ?), the radius of the arc in the top directly behind the bridge WITHOUT ANY STRINGS (just the memory of the wood) is ~20 feet (6.1 meters). About midway betwen the bridge and the bottom/tail of the guitiar, it's ~18 feet (5.5 meters). This seems like an awfully small radius compared to other guitars I read about on here, indicating a large degree of bellying. For reference the lower bout of the guitar is 14.25 inches (362mm) wide, and the rise in the center is ~2.5mm directly behind the bridge. 3mm further back.

I'm thinking this large arc has been allowed because the top is cracked in that area, so the rigidity is lost and it can bow more easily. Wondering if I should resolve the arch in the top *before* I try and repair the crack, so that I'm not making the "bad dimensions" permanent. I could use a bridge doctor to affect this change, but I may start with just a very flat board layed on top and some weight or clamps (20 lb kettle bell ought to do something...). Would be nice if I could get a relatively flat top this way and avoid the bridge doctor all together. Then repair the top cracks once it's more flattened to hold it that way.

It looks like someone attempted to repair this crack in the past (hence glue residue/staining) so this may not be trivial. I'm guessing it was CA glue or similar given the large spread and penetration of the wood.

Would it be sacrilege to use regular wood glue to attempt a repair in the top like this? In theory I don't ever want it coming apart again so using an intentionally reversible glue seems somewhat pointless. I'm thinking I should sand away the inner faces of the crack to expose bare wood, then make some sliver of wood to fill it, and glue that in place followed by cleats.

redir · #14 02-15-2023, 07:33 AM

Where did you get that clamp?

jaywalker · #15 02-15-2023, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redir

Where did you get that clamp?

On the Bezos Zone (Amazon). You have to do some digging to find this exact one, here's a listing: https://a.co/d/9iwyHxu. It's a 1/10 scale RC/model/toy car jack.

I saw someone using it in a guitar repair video (I think it was from @harpethguitar on YouTube) and thought it was a really clever solution. Much cheaper than the "real" tool from Stew Mac ($$$) and it works well.

Thinking more about my top's belly/arc problem, I'm wondering if I should try and steam it flat. Similar to the John Miner neck reset method; I can cover everything inside with towels that I *don't* want to reshape, clamp things in place that shouldn't move (bridge plate, braces) and then steam the lower bout while the top is clamped flat. Ideally this will allow the exposed glue joints to reflow a little, while also steam bending the exposed wood back to the expected shape.