The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Build and Repair

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 08-16-2015, 05:11 PM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edinburgh, bonny Scotland
Posts: 5,197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BothHands View Post
So what does Martin use? And why did you increase the height that way?
Martin have traditionally used .037" high fretwire, which is unplayable IMO.

Like Rick, I have also refretted any Martin I have owned with higher wire.

I just recently acquired a OOO-28 Eric Clapton signature model, and was pleasantly surprised to discover that they had installed .043" fretwire on it.

Whether Martin are now doing this across the entire range, or just on the Clapton signature models, I have no idea.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-16-2015, 05:29 PM
BothHands BothHands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post
I'd say I prefer higher frets as they give me more definition for pull-offs, hammer-ons and slides/slurs etc.
Does anybody else think taller frets make it easier to pull-off, hammer-on and slide?

Mine are currently tall at .050". I don't have an opinion regarding hammer-on or pull-off, though I employ both. I dislike 'the speedbump effect' when sliding up the neck a full tone of more. Bump-bump-bump. Sometimes it causes me to overshoot or undershoot the landing-zone fret. I try to make sure I'm not applying too much fretting pressure in the slide, but it still causes me trouble.

With regard to hammering on and pulling off, James Taylor has built his reputation on them, so I would assume (and only assume) his preferred fret spec (.084" wide x .040" tall) would be optimal...

Last edited by BothHands; 08-16-2015 at 05:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-16-2015, 05:38 PM
BothHands BothHands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by murrmac123 View Post
Martin have traditionally used .037" high fretwire, which is unplayable IMO.
I don't doubt you, Murray, but my Gurian fret height measures about .035" (after a professional setup done long ago). That's shorter than the .037" you mention, but the Gurian is really easy (for me) to play. I guess everybody really IS different (gee...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by murrmac123 View Post
I just recently acquired a OOO-28 Eric Clapton signature model, and was pleasantly surprised to discover that they had installed .043" fretwire on it.
NEAT. With regard to fretwire height: Assume .043" fret height, followed by a professional fret leveling and crowing. Typically, how much fret height have I lost in the process?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-16-2015, 06:04 PM
RRuskin RRuskin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 2,621
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BothHands View Post
So what does Martin use? And why did you increase the height that way?
You're asking the wrong person about the dimensions of Martin fret wire. I chose the taller wire so I could have just enough extra height primarily for easier bending. I bend multiple strings at a time for pedal-steel riffs on a regular basis.
__________________
Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music - Seattle WA
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-16-2015, 06:30 PM
BothHands BothHands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRuskin View Post
I chose the taller wire so I could have just enough extra height primarily for easier bending. I bend multiple strings at a time for pedal-steel riffs on a regular basis.
Ah, I see. I've been reading up on this, and easier string bends is often cited as one advantage of taller frets.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-16-2015, 07:02 PM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edinburgh, bonny Scotland
Posts: 5,197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BothHands View Post
With regard to fretwire height: Assume .043" fret height, followed by a professional fret leveling and crowing. Typically, how much fret height have I lost in the process?
After a refret, if the board is in good shape to start with, you shouldn't lose any more than .002" max off the original height.

That of course is assuming that the fret height is actually as advertised, and also the same height throughout the coil, which is not always the case. It's never higher IME but it can be lower by a thou or so.

As far as my Martin is concerned, I would guess that the frets started life at .045" high, and after PLEKking ended up at .043".
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-18-2015, 01:07 PM
Guest 1928
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by murrmac123 View Post
I just recently acquired a OOO-28 Eric Clapton signature model, and was pleasantly surprised to discover that they had installed .043" fretwire on it.
Martin is now using 0.080" x 0.043" on most guitars. That is a fairly recent change.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-18-2015, 01:25 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 17,172
Default

Minimum fret size on a guitar I have owned over the last few years was on my Collings guitars (0.043 X 0.080). That is ok but I prefer bigger frets.
I have had all my guitars refretted to stainless steel or EVO gold and in larger sizes. My favorite size is 0.047 X 0.108.

Wider wire feels good under the fingers but is more likely to intonate incorrectly when worn down, however that is not an issue with the harder wire which lasts and lasts.

With taller wire your fingertips are dancing on the frets without contacting the fretboard itself. Less pressure is required for a clean sound, and pull-offs and bends are easier.

YMMV
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-18-2015, 03:07 PM
BothHands BothHands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
I have had all my guitars refretted to stainless steel or EVO gold and in larger sizes. My favorite size is 0.047 X 0.108.
I've been reading about EVO Copper (AKA EVO Gold) fretwire and think it's the best option. Seems to wear better than nickel-silver and about as well as stainless steel...and is apparently easy to install, whereas SS is difficult and is hard on luthier tools. HERE is an interesting reference (see paragraph 3).

Who makes the EVO fretwire that you use? And is that .047 x .108" EVO or SS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Wider wire feels good under the fingers [...] With taller wire your fingertips are dancing on the frets without contacting the fretboard itself. Less pressure is required for a clean sound, and pull-offs and bends are easier.
I'm confused about that. My guitar has a wider-than-normal neck. The frets measure approximately .050" tall x .100 wide. I don't like the bump-bump-bump when I slide. I also have trouble with barre chords up the neck; I figured that's because the playing surface gets seriously wide up there and my fingers are kinda knobby (large knuckles). My index finger can't fret all strings effectively - flesh and bone don't form a straight-line pressing surface. Per your comments, taller fretwire leaves greater space between string and fretboard when fretting. Would that extra space help compensate for knobby, non-meaty fingers...or would it make barre chords more difficult?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
[A wide fret] is more likely to intonate incorrectly when worn down, however that is not an issue with the harder wire which lasts and lasts.
I think that's an important point. With setup making such a big difference in playing ease, tone, etc. I'd like to keep that perfected geometry intact for as long as possible. Do luthiers generally install EVO fretwire for the same price as standard nickel-silver?

Last edited by BothHands; 08-18-2015 at 03:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-18-2015, 04:34 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 17,172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BothHands View Post
I've been reading about EVO Copper (AKA EVO Gold) fretwire and think it's the best option. Seems to wear better than nickel-silver and about as well as stainless steel...and is apparently easy to install, whereas SS is difficult and is hard on luthier tools. HERE is an interesting reference (see paragraph 3).

Who makes the EVO fretwire that you use? And is that .047 x .108" EVO or SS?


I'm confused about that. My guitar has a wider-than-normal neck. The frets measure approximately .050" tall x .100 wide. I don't like the bump-bump-bump when I slide. I also have trouble with barre chords up the neck; I figured that's because the playing surface gets seriously wide up there and my fingers are kinda knobby (large knuckles). My index finger can't fret all strings effectively - flesh and bone don't form a straight-line pressing surface. Per your comments, taller fretwire leaves greater space between string and fretboard when fretting. Would that extra space help compensate for knobby, non-meaty fingers...or would it make barre chords more difficult?


I think that's an important point. With setup making such a big difference in playing ease, tone, etc. I'd like to keep that perfected geometry intact for as long as possible. Do luthiers generally install EVO fretwire for the same price as standard nickel-silver?
I don't really care how hard it is for the person doing the refret, just that they do a good work. The tech (luthier) I have used never complained to me about working with stainless steel. They last job he did for me used EVO gold (for the same price as for stainless steel, and about $100 more than for NS). Each tech's charges and markups will vary. The wire was ordered from LMI (and correction on the EVO specs, it is listed as 0.047 X 0.104 (FW9965).

Easier to play in the sense that you don't waste energy pressing down on the actual fretboard, just the frets. Regarding clean barres , on low fretwire you are already pressed down on the fretboard while there is still a little gap at the crease(s) of your finger joint(s) increasing a chance of buzzing on the third or fourth string (for me anyway - your hands many vary). Full barres up beyond the eighth fret or so are crowded and a bear to play for most people on an acoustic guitar.

Tall frets may feel a bit knobby but I actually like the little bit of extra tactile feedback as to where I am on the fretboard. Just lighten up the pressure use doing note fretting and on slides.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-18-2015, 06:34 PM
BothHands BothHands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
I don't really care how hard it is for the person doing the refret, just that they do a good work. [...] The wire was ordered from LMI (and correction on the EVO specs, it is listed as 0.047 X 0.104 (FW9965).
I do care, because there really is "no free lunch". If that tech or luthier has to invest extra time, and in the process his files get dulled from the hard SS, guess who'll PAY for that? Yeah, ME. I spoke with two pros last year who flatly refused to refret with SS because its a PIA and it wrecks their tools. One also told me SS makes for a harsh tone on acoustic guitars, compared to Nickel-Silver. Do you find that to be true?

I think EVO is a very good alternative. Thanks for clarification on your EVO fretwire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Easier to play in the sense that you don't waste energy pressing down on the actual fretboard, just the frets. Regarding clean barres , on low fretwire you are already pressed down on the fretboard while there is still a little gap at the crease(s) of your finger joint(s) increasing a chance of buzzing on the third or fourth string.
Exactly. I'll pay attention to this when playing the taller frets. Maybe smaller fretwire is not the way for me to go...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Full barres up beyond the eighth fret or so are crowded and a bear to play for most people on an acoustic guitar.
So it's not just me. Thanks for good, helpful information, Derek.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-18-2015, 07:05 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 17,172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BothHands View Post
I do care, because there really is "no free lunch". If that tech or luthier has to invest extra time, and in the process his files get dulled from the hard SS, guess who'll PAY for that? Yeah, ME. I spoke with two pros last year who flatly refused to refret with SS because its a PIA and it wrecks their tools. One also told me SS makes for a harsh tone on acoustic guitars, compared to Nickel-Silver. Do you find that to be true?
Penny wise and pound foolish since the harder fretwire will save the cost of a lot of future fretwork that will be needed on NS fretwire. No change in sound that I have noticed on my guitars. Stainless steel will probably outlast EVO gold, however either will way outlast NS.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-22-2019, 01:35 PM
BothHands BothHands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 409
Default Sold this guitar on Nov 19, 2019 - TAN LINES CHANGED in the interim

OP here. Just a heads-up, long after the fact.

Two days ago, Friday, I sold the guitar that is the basis of this experiment. I hadn't looked at it much in the interim; it spent most days in its case.

I'm pretty careful to keep my instruments humidified, but this one may have gotten a bit dry as I moved from eastern Nebraska to Utah, which is arid/semi-arid. I mention humidity only because a lack thereof might be a factor in what happened.

During the experiment I brought the much-lighter wood tone under-pick-guard area to almost exactly the same golden tone as the rest of the spruce top. Years later (in the past few days) careful inspection under excellent lighting shows the under-pick-guard area to have shifted to a slightly darker/deeper tone than the rest of the spruce top.

Is it due to the wood, or the poly spray-on varnish? Did a possible short-term lack of humidity affect either the wood color or the varnish color? I don't know, but I thought I should present the information for the benefit of anyone trying this.

Today is December 22, so Merry Christmas!

Tom
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Build and Repair

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=