Nut files too wide? Help!

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Marty1

You came off as a bit of a cork sniffing traditionalist

That happens a lot. Sorry.

You were taught how to do it, and have 20 years of experience (which I respect).

I started making and repairing guitars in 1977. Some I was formally taught, lots I learned on my own. I'm still learning new things. New tools hit the market on a regular basis, and with them, often, new methods of work. Sometimes the new methods are better, sometimes not.

If I had someone to teach me or the time to throw away a bag of blanks then I'd be on board with the needle files. I was just wondering, given my financial situation at the immediate moment, if I could get away with learning a few things using this specific cheap tool, or if it would simply be a waste of time. That's the purpose of my OP/this thread.

I see that you are in Canada. I'm just outside of Toronto. If you're nearby, I'll be happy to show you how to use needle files and a $10 X-Acto saw.

If you are at all serious about getting into guitar setup work, I'd recommend you buy quality tools to do the job. If you buy good tools, you may only need to buy them once in your lifetime. I, personally, wouldn't waste time on using welding tip cleaners, such as those on the e-bay link you provided. People who have used the cleaners report that they only last a few uses. If you only want to use them a few times, they'll probably accomplish the task adequately.

I MUCH prefer gauged razor saws. They are much quicker cutting and easier to use. Stew Mac introduced them relatively recently in .01, .015, .02, .025 and .03" kerfs. Unfortunately, the largest kerf they currently sell is .030". Their set of 5 saws is $43 USD. For wider strings, I rough-in the slots with saws and then use nut files.

The only downside to razor saws is they, practically, only cut one sloth width per saw, unlike files that can be rocked side to side to produce a wider slot. This allows one file to be used for a variety of reasonably close larger sizes than the file.

I have 5 nut files, .016, .025, 032, .042 and .058". StewMac used to recommend that as a "starter" set, along with a sixth thinner one in the .01 to .012" range. For the first string I use a razor saw - for many years, an X-Acto saw. I see no reason to use a .010 to .012 range file. I rarely use the .016 or .025 files anymore, instead using the saws. Some may argue that the saws produce a flat-bottomed slot, but I have found no difference in the result (i.e. tone).

If you are on a budget, and serious about guitar work, my recommendation is to buy the set of 5 saws and something in the range of .032, .042 and .058 files. An alternative to StewMac for the files is japarts.ca, saving you exchange rate and cross-border shipping. I suspect that the Japanese-made files they sell are better than StewMac's. I believe Ned usually buys stuff from them.

Also, if you are on a budget, don't buy stuff you don't need. There are all kinds of tools being sold as "must-have" for various guitar-related operations. Very few tools are needed to do top-notch guitar setup. A few offer convenience or increased speed, but are not necessary, while many of them are entirely superfluous. When starting-out, it is difficult to distinguish between those that really are necessary and those that aren't.

I've provided an overview of the method and tools I use in my article Basic Guitar Setup101 at http://charlestauber.com/luthier/Resources.html.

[Marty1]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I'm not advocating that one approach is better than the other. The choice of which you prefer is up to you. My point was, simply, to be aware of that alternative, particularly if you are balking at the price of the specialized tools required to do it the "modern" way. You stated in your OP that you've "been progressively learning how to do my own set-up work on guitars." In my opinion, at least eventually, that is part of one's education, to be aware of alternative ways of doing things, and then choosing those that work best for you.

Absolutely, but the impression I got from your initial post was that modern tools were just snake oil and that it was as easy as going to the hardware store to get needle files and just doing it. You came off as a bit of a cork sniffing traditionalist (hahaha). It was enjoyable to read though .

Obviously there's a certain knowledge involved. You were taught how to do it, and have 20 years of experience (which I respect). If I had someone to teach me or the time to throw away a bag of blanks then I'd be on board with the needle files. I was just wondering, given my financial situation at the immediate moment, if I could get away with learning a few things using this specific cheap tool, or if it would simply be a waste of time. That's the purpose of my OP/this thread.

[Marty1]

^^ that's odd, on my browser your answer to my post comes before my post.

In any case, thank you for the info! I am about 4 hrs out of Toronto, and I don't make it down there very often, but thank you for the offer. I may PM if I head down your way!

Thank you for the link, I looked through it really quick since I'm at work but I'll return to it very soon. Just flipping through I saw your picture of using a flat edge piece of wood to keep a nut stable while sanding. GREAT IDEA! Love it already.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by YamaYairi

A luthier friend told me a cool trick for cutting nut slots. Fold a piece of sandpaper over the edge of a credit card.

Duh, someone slap me. I should have thought of this. Good one.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Marty1

Just flipping through I saw your picture of using a flat edge piece of wood to keep a nut stable while sanding. GREAT IDEA! Love it already.

A few years ago, a luthier on this forum suggested using what amounts to a shooting board. I though, GREAT IDEA! and have used a variation of it ever since. I don't use the flat edge piece of wood anymore, as the shooting board arrangement is much quicker and easier, though does require having, or making, a shooting board. I've had a shooting board for years, just never thought to use it for nuts and saddles.

Originally Posted by YamaYairi

A luthier friend told me a cool trick for cutting nut slots. Fold a piece of sandpaper over the edge of a credit card.

Given that a credit card is about 0.030" thick without sandpaper it couldn't be practical for any but the thickest strings. And sandpaper used like that is not very precise. I'd suggest sticking with files.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

If the files make a round bottom slot, a little extra width should not cause any buzzing or muting.
Before I got the gauged nut files from Stew Mac, I used needle files for the wound strings, and razor saw blades for the plain stings. I still use the razor saw blades....if for no other reason than to set the depth. The backside of the blades is a straightedge that I lay in the slot and on the second fret.

Same for me, only I'm still using the needle files and razor saw. I don't build enough to justify the investment in specialized nut files. I build with a zero fret, so precise nut slots are less critical.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

The backside of the blades is a straightedge that I lay in the slot and on the second fret.

John, I have seen you post this before and I am still puzzled.

Your .012" and .016" razor saws are backsaws, right ? So how do you use the backs as straightedges in a .012" or .016" slot ?

The thickness of the backs on my backsaws is like .030" - .050".

I bought the file for the treble strings. For the wound strings I make a starter scratch with a triangular file then actually file the slot with a wound string one size above the one I want to use. (eg, a .056 for a .054 string, etc.)

[dhalbert]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Your .012" and .016" razor saws are backsaws, right ? So how do you use the backs as straightedges in a .012" or .016" slot?

I asked John the same question in a previous thread and he said he had some unbranded saws he bought at a salvage store that had no back reinforcement.

[redir]

I think everything has pretty much been said but... I am one of the ones who uses plain old needle files. I bought a set circa 1992 and then 'upgraded' to a diamond set about 5 years ago. I have thought about getting the gauged files but every time I look at the price I think why bother? Having said that it would not be the first time that I purchased a new tool after doing it the old way for years and thought to my self, 'what a dumb arse for not getting this sooner!'

But anyway... No worries on a slot that is too wide. I tend to like to make them too wide just in case a player wants to go up a guage. It's probably a good idea to set the nut slot widths for at least the biggest stirings available so that a player can experiment with gauges. So if he chooses to go with super lights then the slots will be a bit bigger but it won't matter as long as the bottom is rounded and the slot is angled back to the tuner post and the string will rest in the lowest point.

If you think about it the 'slot' width on the saddle is infinitely wider then necessary but no one complains about it there.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by dhalbert

I asked John the same question in a previous thread and he said he had some unbranded saws he bought at a salvage store that had no back reinforcement.

OK ... I am still slightly puzzled, as these would have to be Japanese style saws, cutting on the backward pull , with the tang the same thickness as the blade (in fact the tang would have to be an integral part of the blade) and fitted to the handle of the saw.

There is no way a western style saw .012" thick, cutting on the forward stroke, would work without a back reinforcement.

[dhalbert]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

OK ... I am still slightly puzzled, as these would have to be Japanese style saws, cutting on the backward pull , with the tang the same thickness as the blade (in fact the tang would have to be an integral part of the blade) and fitted to the handle of the saw.

There is no way a western style saw .012" thick, cutting on the forward stroke, would work without a back reinforcement.

In the post from me he replied to, I pointed to these replacement saw blades I found at Home Depot. The description says you can reverse them in the holder to use as pull saws. They are meant for this saw. If what he got was plain saw blades, without handles, then he could use them as pull saws. The single-sided nut files that StewMac sells also do not have a thicker back, so I guess they would work too.

But maybe John will say about whether his have handles or not. I am just speculating.

[eGGz]

Originally Posted by YamaYairi

A luthier friend told me a cool trick for cutting nut slots. Fold a piece of sandpaper over the edge of a credit card.

Maybe for a bass guitar but this would never work for a regular six string acoustic or electric. I hope nobody tries this.