Neck Reset on Alvarez Masterworks series: What factory GLUE was used?

[BothHands]

Has anybody here done a NECK RESET on an ALVAREZ Masterworks series guitar?

Has anybody here REMOVED THE FRETBOARD from an ALVAREZ Masterworks?

In particular, the Alvarez MD350 - a Chinese-built dreadnought manufactured in 2005, and a second one manufactured in 2008.

The Alvarez line at that time involved three quality levels:
a) Regent, economy line
b) Artist, mid-level line
c) Masterworks, top of the line - all solid woods, etc.

1. Some online comments say Alvarez guitars used EPOXY or some troublesome 'Asian Mystery Glue' at the neck joint. Those comments might pertain to the low-end Regent series, but I doubt they refer to the Masterworks high line. Do YOU know for sure?

2. I found a description of the MD350 that stated, "...a well constructed traditional dovetail neck joint". Can YOU confirm or deny this based on actual experience?

3. What kind of glue was used to set the neck joint. I'm hoping it's a PVA wood glue, like Titebond.

4. What glue was used to adhere the fretboard to the neck and top. Again, fingers crossed for PVA...

[BothHands]

I just spoke with Tom Kruszka at Saint Louis Music, US distributor for Alvarez.

1. He confirmed that the dovetail neck joint is glued with EPXY.

2. He isn't sure about the fretboard-to-neck glue, but thinks it's probably a normal WOOD GLUE. He said, "We haven't dealt with that factory for a while, so I can't say for sure." The idea of shopping guitar production around to various Chinese sweatshops gives me zero confidence.

The EPOXY confirmation settles it: These two "fine instruments" are going to have their necks delicately SAWED OFF! and each will be converted to a bolt-on assembly. Also, I intend to remove the fretboard from one guitar, for reasons I'll explain in another thread.

QUESTION 1: Does anybody know FOR SURE whether an Alvarez Masterworks built in the mid 1980s used typical WOOD GLUE to attach the ebony fretboard to the mahogany neck? If not, would you care to make an educated guess, or suggest a limited experiment/test that would indicate type of glue?

QUESTION 2: If the fretboard is glued with wood glue, can I remove it with a household steam iron and some encouragement from thin flat instruments? I've seen it done on YouTube, but not everything that appears there deserves The Luthiery Seal of Approval. FWIW, here's a YouTube search on 'remove fretboard"

[BothHands]

THIS VIDEO is a fine example of YouTube Culture. It's the first video in the search list linked in my post #2 above.

The guy's a classic "enthusiastic amateur" working in his mom's busy kitchen with his little sister watching TV, dogs barking, whatever. He uses a Black&Decker laundry iron and a putty knife but after 15 minutes he does remove that fretboard without serious damage (it's off at 4:41)

[BothHands]

Interesting point #1: This forum's own Spell Checker doesn't like the word 'Luthiery".
Interesting point #2: The Spell Checker wants to substitute 'Thievery' for Luthiery...

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A viewer made the following reply to THIS YouTube video pertaining to "Removing a Fretboard". It's a very helpful well-written overview on the suitability of various glues to luthiery. And there's a brief Q&A afterward:


REPLY by catdumpling 10 months ago

Interesting timing! I just did a bit of glue research a couple weeks back (it wasn't intentional, I just got sucked into the linky-clicky thing.) Anyway, I came across several useful interviews with people at Franklin (Titebond), Loctite and Gorilla regarding yellow/aliphatic wood glues, poly glues and epoxies as they relate to woodworking. I'll try to sum it up instead of going into long descriptions, but they all agreed on a few key things.

1. Epoxy isn't supposed to be clamped (especially not with the pressures that woodworkers use), it wasn't designed for that. Epoxies are meant to be gap-filling and they also don't absorb into wood pores, so they're not an ideal woodworking adhesive in most cases. Pieces can be clamped with just enough pressure to keep them from moving, but anything tighter than that will squeeze virtually all of the glue out; that's why DIY guitar repairs with epoxies commonly fail. They are good for things like inlaying reinforcement rods in necks and grain filling, but they're definitely not designed for general guitar glue-up.

2. Polyurethane glues were primarily designed to hold end-grain (either end-to-end or end-to-edge/face) but don't provide any strength advantage in most other uses. Regular yellow wood glue tends to shrink as it dries, which can cause problems when it soaks into endgrain; you'll end up with a weak joint, and this is where poly glues shine because they don't shrink as they cure. Poly glues are also excellent for gluing dissimilar surfaces, like wood to metal: aliphatic/yellow glues pretty much only stick to wood, paper and fabric, but poly glue will adhere well to **** near anything, which also makes it fantastic for things like repairing patio furniture and decorations. But they can also force joints apart as the glue expands, and are almost impossible to remove cleanly once they cure. Again, in most cases it's not a good general guitar woodworking kind of glue.

3. Yellow/aliphatic wood glues (ie, Titebond, Gorilla Wood Glue, etc.) are designed to soak into grain, but because they shrink as they dry they're actually not meant for gap-filling. They're strong enough without trying to enhance the "mechanical" joint by keying, and in fact can be weakened by keying. They need a tight wood-to-wood contact, so sanding with 220-grit at the most is all that's necessary for the glue joint. They do have a problem with burnished wood surfaces (because the pores are sealed shut), so hard woods that are shiny/burnished should be sanded lightly with 150 or 200 grit just to knock off the burnished layer and open the pores up again. Any "keying" beyond that can actually weaken the joint in some cases and defeats the way the glues were designed to work (according to Franklin/Titebond's head chemist.) At best you'll just have a little piece of shrunken, dried glue entombed in a little furrow somewhere in the wood, not really doing anything except biding its time until the universe collapses in on itself.

One article I read did mention a couple quick blurbs about hide glue, but I skipped over it because I don't use hide glue. All of this info came directly from either the glue manufacturers' websites or a couple articles I found on woodworking websites. I don't remember the links offhand, but I'm sure a bit of Googling would pull them (IIRC, they were both from a couple years ago, and I want to say one was on Fine Woodworking Magazine's website, but I could be wrong.) It was one of those things that I hadn't at all set out to learn about, but a boring evening lead to me learning a lot more about various glues than I'd intended!


Follow-up Q&A

unwinsis 3 weeks ago
Great post, but I want to be absolutely clear on this because my son and I are about to attempt a truss rod replacement. Is it correct to say that the Gorilla Glue he uses for balsa wood airplane models would be choice, so long as the fretboard and neck are properly prepared?

catdumpling 3 weeks ago (edited)
+unwinsis You can use Gorilla Glue (I'm assuming you're talking about the dark brown polyurethane stuff), but I wouldn't recommend it. First, if something goes wrong and the fretboard shifts while clamped up, you can't remove Gorilla Glue: you'd have to sand or plane off the fretboard and old glue (and cured poly glue is hard stuff.) Gorilla Glue also foams up as it cures, which has a tendency to push apart whatever you're gluing; again, not ideal.

I'm of the mind that you shouldn't use anything other than regular yellow wood glue to build a guitar (or hide glue, if you want to go old-school.) Titebond I or similar glues are industry standard, and can be removed fairly easily (with steam) if necessary, after it's cured. Titebond II is harder to get apart should the need arise, but it's good stuff too. Gorilla Wood Glue (yellow, not the dark brown stuff) is excellent, and even Elmer's Yellow Carpenter's Glue is fine.

Most guitar manufacturers (including Gibson, Fender, Carvin, et al) use Titebond I, and that (or comparable brand) is what tends to work best, with the least amount of hassle.
Read more

unwinsis 3 weeks ago
Our Gorilla glue is regular yellow wood glue/carpenter's glue, but I think I'll use titebond in case we don't set the fretboard correctly the first time. Thanks for the advice!

catdumpling 3 weeks ago
+unwinsis
The yellow Gorilla Glue is fine and is basically the same thing as Titebond. It's just the dark brown polyurethane GG that I'd avoid.

[charles Tauber]

That isn't a very accurate summary. While epoxy may not be designed for heavily clamped joints, it has been successfully used in luthiery for a variety of applications. For example, although controversial, back in the 1970's, David Russell Young was using epoxied butt joints to attach his guitar necks. I've used it quite successfully in gluing spruce braces to ebony. It is commonly used for "composite" bracing material, such as carbon fiber glued to wood. It is the glue of choice for "double tops".

Fine Woodworking did fairly extensive testing on various types of glues and published the results in issue #192 - How Strong is Your Glue, Mark Schofield. There were some interesting results, including that Gorilla's Polyurethane was particularly poor in filling gaps in wood joints, lowering the strength of the joint and that even "snug" joints weren't stronger than white, yellow or hide glues: quite an embarrassment for a glue claiming to be "The toughest glue on the planet". Also, the strength of a "loose" fitting joint was no stronger with epoxy than with white or yellow glues.

Probably, most luthiers would agree that polyurethane glues have little use in instrument making.

[BothHands]

Points taken, Charles. Certainly I'm no arbiter of what's technically accurate in this realm. In line with your own point of view, I did glean from that YouTube overview how the primary value of polyurethane glues is their ability to join dissimilar materials. That's a very useful piece of information.

As for 'Gorilla Glue', well...I never thought much of that product name and have never used GG products (bin a Titebond man all ma born days, by cracky) so I'm not surprised to read your remarks. Thanks for bringing those "unfortunate details" to light.

FWIW, I've used epoxies and have been generally pleased with the results. Negativity expressed in this thread reflects only my concern that epoxy at the dovetail neck joint pretty much turns a neck reset into a moot point - especially when the subject instrument is... an ALVAREZ! OH NO! NOT A ALVAREZ!

Since I intend to convert to bolt-on necks, I'm kinda GLAD the dovetail tenon is epoxied in place. 'Should make for a nice stable platform through which the neck heel can be bolted on (or am I mistaken?).

I am a bit worried about the possibility of the fretboard being epoxied to the neck and spruce top. Indications are that PVA glue was probably used for that, but if not I dread what measures might have to be taken...

[B. Howard]

Bolt on conversion is the way I handle these. The FB extension will release with heat, about 300 F for most epoxies.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by B. Howard

Bolt on conversion is the way I handle these. The FB extension will release with heat, about 300 F for most epoxies.

Thanks, Brian. That's encouraging, and I understand you to mean 300 F for epoxy, not PVA wood glue.
If the fretboard really IS attached with PVA glue, should it come loose at a much lower temperature than 300F?

When you apply 300 F heat, what's the source of the heat? A heat gun?
I think a 1500W hair blow dryer can't generate that much heat...
How about a household laundry iron set to max heat + steam?

[BothHands]

In hopes that the fretboard is attached with normal wood glue, I spoke with Titebond Tech Support today, who advised as follows:

At 150 F, most Titebond products (with the exception of Titebond Extended) maintain 1,750 psi hold strength at 150 F. That's the only temperature related info he had on hand, so he couldn't tell me how much heat it takes to break the bond.

He advised that steam will assist in breaking the bond.

He advised that application of a mixture of ACETONE + WATER + VINEGAR mixed 1:1:1 will help break the bond.

The ACETONE evaporates quickly.
The WATER slows the evaporation.
If you're not getting the desired results, add more ACETONE.

I would think application of a liquid mixture would cause problems in fretboard removal...?

[Steve Works]

Originally Posted by BothHands

THIS VIDEO is a fine example of YouTube Culture. It's the first video in the search list linked in my post #2 above.

The guy's a classic "enthusiastic amateur" working in his mom's busy kitchen with his little sister watching TV, dogs barking, whatever. He uses a Black&Decker laundry iron and a putty knife but after 15 minutes he does remove that fretboard without serious damage (it's off at 4:41)

Awesome! I doubt it's his first attempt, though )
__________________________________________
Steve Works
Manus

[B. Howard]

Yes 300F for epoxies. As you have already found out most other adhesives will give up the ghost at about 200F.

Originally Posted by BothHands

He advised that application of a mixture of ACETONE + WATER + VINEGAR mixed 1:1:1 will help break the bond.

I'm sure it's fine on an Alvarez, but you do need to understand what finish is used on the guitar. Acetone is not kind to nitrocellulose lacquer. Vinegar is not kind to blued steel, but that's not likely an issue in guitar work.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by B. Howard

Yes 300F for epoxies. As you have already found out most other adhesives will give up the ghost at about 200F.

Thanks, Brian. For you or for ANYBODY who knows:
Is a household laundry iron set to HIGH + STEAM the right tool (for amateurs) for applying 200 degrees Fahrenheit to an ebony fretboard?

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by Steve Works

Awesome! I doubt it's his first attempt, though.

Agreed. His comments indicate that he assembled that neck, so he's actively producing electric instruments. Not so sure about his end results under those conditions, but he appears to be up to his neck in 'guitar work'.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

I'm sure it's fine on an Alvarez, but you do need to understand what finish is used on the guitar. Acetone is not kind to nitrocellulose lacquer. Vinegar is not kind to blued steel, but that's not likely an issue in guitar work.

Todd == These two Alvarez have a tough, gloss, clear poly finish that appears to be quite thin. If ACETONE + WATER + VINEGAR will not hurt the finish, that'll be one concern laid to rest, but what about the effect of liquids on the unprotected spruce top wood to which the fretboard is glued. 'Seems like it might play havoc with raising the grain, etc.

And a similar concern for the mahogany neck - less concern about raising the grain and more about potential twisting...