retitled: D-15 accidental restoration project

fazool · #1 03-05-2015, 09:08 PM

(project takes on a new life further down this thread)

So, I recently did a total restoration on a Martin 000-15 including three body cracks, a smashed hole, five drilled holes and a neck joint repair.

That was a great project and came out amazing.

Well, I've been working on a 2010 D-15. I used my normal techniques of using a multilayer heat shiled to protect the soundboard and a thermocouple temp sensor to monitor temps under a focused heat lamp. Then I heat custom spatulas and slide them under to loosen the fretboard extension. Well This glue is totally different than the 000-15 glue, which removed as intended.

I even did a bridge removal and had the same problems - the glue is not loosening as expected. Even under heat it's gooey and very very sticky almost like strong rubber cement.

It's like two totally different guitars. I don't know what or why they changed but this more modern glue is brutal.

fazool · #2 03-06-2015, 09:59 PM

Well I built an Espresso-steamer and it worked amazingly well. I didn't heed the reasonable advice and walked away with one slightly burned palm, but it worked great.

The glue loosened finally and the neck came off but I suffered some damage underneath which I am now repairing.

This glue was brutal, especially compared to the well-behaved glue on my 000-15.

fazool · #3 03-08-2015, 06:10 PM

Well, this project started out simple enough but some unforeseen issues led me to careless mistakes and now a bigger project.

The project started out with a simple top seam split from dehydration and a wood crack on the back from the same. The crack fix went flawlessly and came out terrific. I was debating overspraying with a satin nitrocellulose but held off to see how the top worked out.

The top rehydrated and re-expanded nicely over a week. The problem now was that I got the seam so tightly closed I couldn't work any viscous glue into the space. So I went with CA to wick in. I added some clamps and secured everything nicely. It worked but left a very unpleasant finish blemish that I just couldn't get out.

So I was debating a refinish to blend the repair in, but that rosette decal was a hurdle.

So I decided to remove the neck for a reset and do a refinish at the same time.

Well it did not go as well as the neck reset on my 000-15 restoration project. This one would not budge. I finally steamed it off but only after losing some top wood to the bottom of the fingerboard. I had the same problem on the bridge. This was a strange glue. It did not loosen with heat as expected (and done before on the same series guitar).

I use a heat lamp with shileds and a thermocouple temperature monitor, plus pallet knives heated with a heat gun. Later I use my Mr. Coffee Esperesso machine steam injector.

So, I undertook a soundboard repair and minor fretboard underside repair.

I Fixed the structural part and repaired the neck block under it to what I would consider almost-factory condition.

Now, I am re-repairing the seam split. Under the stress of the neck removal, the seam popped apart again. This time I used a cleat and protein glue.

Big sigh of relief - this now looks very promising again, just a lot more work than planned.

This time I am being more careful. What a big project this turned out to be, all because I had trouble with the glue and tried to force it using what I was used to. I should have retreated and approached it differently instead of plowing on ahead.

guitarguitar · #4 03-09-2015, 08:06 AM

Epoxy would have been the best chance of keeping that seam closed. Protein or Polyvinyl will fail on a previous glue joint. I preheat the epoxy in my glue pot to loosen the viscosity to an almost water thin consistency, about 20 seconds and apply to the seam that I previously jacked up from inside. Let set an hour and it will creep down though even on a tight spot. Pull the jack and clamp. No tone dampening cleats needed. I can't afford repeat cracks in my shop.

Skip

fazool · #5 03-09-2015, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitarguitar

Epoxy would have been the best chance of keeping that seam closed. Protein or Polyvinyl will fail on a previous glue joint. I preheat the epoxy in my glue pot to loosen the viscosity to an almost water thin consistency, about 20 seconds and apply to the seam that I previously jacked up from inside. Let set an hour and it will creep down though even on a tight spot. Pull the jack and clamp. No tone dampening cleats needed. I can't afford repeat cracks in my shop.

Skip

Good point Skip,

Someone recommended epoxy earlier and I was reluctant. I've never worked with epoxy so always shied away from it. Perhaps it would have been the right choice.

kkrell · #6 03-09-2015, 10:26 AM

I was going to suggest the Suction Cup technique to force glue into the crack, per Dan Erlewine's video here (around 2:22 mark). Start a little earlier, and you can see him cut open the crack to remove old glue first, then splice in some top wood, but in any case, you might still get better results than your previous attempt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvP565-YJ_g

fazool · #7 03-09-2015, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkrell

I was going to suggest the Suction Cup technique to force glue into the crack, per Dan Erlewine's video here (around 2:22 mark). Start a little earlier, and you can see him cut open the crack to remove old glue first, then splice in some top wood, but in any case, you might still get better results than your previous attempt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvP565-YJ_g

Actually I did use that method. This time I used LMII fish glue, thinned it just slightly with distilled water and injected it then suction cup plungered it.

I removed the clamps after 15 hours (a little extra to be safe) and so far it looks good.

CoolerKing · #8 03-10-2015, 07:52 PM

That does look like a lot of work ! Great job.

fazool · #9 03-10-2015, 08:01 PM

finished all the structural repairs and started clearing the top's finish off.

I'm rather encouraged now that this will turn out positive in the end.

fazool · #10 04-10-2015, 10:40 PM

The repaired seam and refinished job just got completed. I got a great match of the stain and the satin nitrocellulose came out great.

The OEM stock Martin rosette came out good too. Here it is while the bridge is being re-attached.

repete · #11 04-11-2015, 02:55 AM

I'm still waiting to hear about the different types of glue used on the neck/bridge......! I'm curious to find out what it is and why its different.

I thought someone would have commented already.

-r

nottypine · #12 04-11-2015, 08:23 AM

Not sure what type glue they are using these days,but vinegar will help remove some glues out of seams and joints. Have to be careful. I've only done this once. It worked OK.

Sam VanLaningham · #13 04-11-2015, 10:54 AM

fazool! Nice and clean work. Looks great. Im impressed.

Sam

CoolerKing · #14 04-16-2015, 09:05 AM

That came out beautifully!

fazool · #15 04-16-2015, 09:40 AM

Thanks. It really looks great. I am having major trouble with an overset neck currently.

I think I figured out the possible history of this guitar.

I think it was given to someone for a neck reset. They shaved the heel but went (way) too far and overset the neck. I think the guitar was given up on, set aside unstrung.

I think it sat, neglected and the wood dried out, separating and cracking. I got it, fixed the two splits (one wood split one glue split) and refinished it. I figured I might be in for a minor neck adjustment but I was surprised how far off it was.

So, I learned a lesson to get a better evaluation before digging in to far. I have to redo some of the refinishing after fixing the neck.

Thanks for the feedback, ideas and encouragement. This has certainly turned into a challenging project and I hope to have a respectable D-15 back in someone's playing hands someday soon.