K & K pure mini. Baggs para DI

[HighAndDry]

All right I finally bought a K & k for my martin omcpa4. i was actually going to get the trinity system but my dealer didnt have one. i will probably add a mic at some point. Or i could probably order the mic and pre online. But I am considering the baggs para di Is that a combo preamp/DI? I see it has a gain on it. (No. dont want to get into another "gain" discussion. LOL)
Anyway. does anyone have any opinions on the para di? would I be better off ordering the K & K stuff?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by HighAndDry

All right I finally bought a K & k for my martin omcpa4. i was actually going to get the trinity system but my dealer didnt have one. i will probably add a mic at some point. Or i could probably order the mic and pre online. But I am considering the baggs para di Is that a combo preamp/DI? I see it has a gain on it. (No. dont want to get into another "gain" discussion. LOL)
Anyway. does anyone have any opinions on the para di? would I be better off ordering the K & K stuff?

Hi H&D...
The ParaDI is a single channel in and out unit. If you are going to add an internal mic later, then you would either have to purchase/add a dual channel preamp which supplies voltage to the mic (phantom), or you could buy one now and only use one channel till you add the mic.

The 2 channel preamps I'm aware of that do a great job are:
DTAR Solstice
Pendulum SPS series
Raven PMB (no longer made but can be found)
K&K Trinity belt pack (tone controls internal)
K&K Quantum preamp

All these do a great job with a K&K dual source.

ParaDI work just great with K&K despite some people's allegations that there is an impedance mismatch - they still work great. Also they work great with UltraSound's UltraPDI, Fishman Platinum, Baggs Venue and several other less well known preamps I've plugged them into over the past few years.

We provide PA systems for gigs, and K&K are always welcome, and we always have a ParaDI or two on hand for players who show up without preamps.

[RustyAxe]

I'm one who didn't like the sound of the K&K Mini into my Baggs ParaDI. Boomy bass and thin trebles ... due, IMO, to the impedance mismatch. The K&K preamps (and many others) make a better impedance match. I have Pure and it sounds fine.

But ... if you are thinking of a dual source system, you have other considerations. To take the signal from the guitar to the preamp you'll need to be able to take both signals and have the means to blend and balance the mic and the pickup. This can happen inside the guitar, as with the Trinity system, or at the external preamp. Another consideration is power for the condenser mic.

The Baggs ParaDI won't do any of this for you.

[HighAndDry]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi H&D...
The ParaDI is a single channel in and out unit. If you are going to add an internal mic later, then you would either have to purchase/add a dual channel preamp which supplies voltage to the mic (phantom), or you could buy one now and only use one channel till you add the mic.

The 2 channel preamps I'm aware of that do a great job are:
DTAR Solstice
Pendulum SPS series
Raven PMB (no longer made but can be found)
K&K Trinity belt pack (tone controls internal)
K&K Quantum preamp

All these do a great job with a K&K dual source.

ParaDI work just great with K&K despite some people's allegations that there is an impedance mismatch - they still work great. Also they work great with UltraSound's UltraPDI, Fishman Platinum, Baggs Venue and several other less well known preamps I've plugged them into over the past few years.

We provide PA systems for gigs, and K&K are always welcome, and we always have a ParaDI or two on hand for players who show up without preamps.

Thanks. who did the test a while back with K&K and supposedly mismatched pres? someone on this forum. I even downloaded the mp3s if I recall and couldn't tell the difference.
thanks again for the heads up on the dual channel preamp

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by HighAndDry

Thanks. who did the test a while back with K&K and supposedly mismatched pres? someone on this forum. I even downloaded the mp3s if I recall and couldn't tell the difference.
thanks again for the heads up on the dual channel preamp

Hi H&D...

It was Doug Young...

And as I recall he both wired a cable to match and recorded both impedance matched and mismatched files.

Then he recorded some other version too.

[ccarey]

My K&K Pure Mini SLAYS with the Baggs Venue D.I.

Never tried the Para DI, but the Venue EQ is more comprehensive, especially in the Mids (sweepable LO and HI mids).

For me, they're a match made in heaven. Tried it against the Radial Tonebone but the Venue won hands-down. Both had great EQ and boost, but the Venue has a built in Tuner and can run on 9V in a pinch.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by ccarey

My K&K Pure Mini SLAYS with the Baggs Venue D.I.

Never tried the Para DI, but the Venue EQ is more comprehensive, especially in the Mids (sweepable LO and HI mids).

For me, they're a match made in heaven. Tried it against the Radial Tonebone but the Venue won hands-down. Both had great EQ and boost, but the Venue has a built in Tuner and can run on 9V in a pinch.

Hi ccarey...

Both the ParaDI and Venue are great. The ParaDI is a forerunner of the Venue, and Venue is specifically designed with guitarists in mind. Neither with a K&K needs a ton-o-tweaking in the mids - or put another way, either can tweak the mids just fine.

There are other instruments and applications where I find the ParaDI more useful. ParaDI are a general purpose preamp with a lot of potential adjustments, whereas the Venue is targeted to players like guitarists or violinists (fiddlers specifically) who might benefit from tuners and boost features.

I rarely use built in tuners, as a singer/player. I'm not prone to taking time to stare at the floor while interacting with the audience.

[kydave]

There is an impedence mismatch with the K&K pickup and the Baggs preamps (all).

I used a Para DI with my first K&K years ago, because I already had it for other instruments. It did not suck at all.

However, the sound was better with an impedence matched preamp from K&K.

[pitner]

I have K and K mini's in two of my acoustics and a feather in another. I use the Baggs Para DI that my Wife scored at the auction brand new in box for $20. Sounds really good to me but if you are going dual source get the dual input unit.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by kydave

There is an impedence mismatch with the K&K pickup and the Baggs preamps (all).

I used a Para DI with my first K&K years ago, because I already had it for other instruments. It did not suck at all.

However, the sound was better with an impedence matched preamp from K&K.

Hi Kydave...
Perhaps you have an extremely sensitive high end system, but your results don't match what we hear when we do PA work.

I own both a K&K preamp and ParaDIs, and the sound with a ParaDI or my K&K preamp is indistinguishable. If you close your eyes when we plug it in, even we cannot tell the difference.

With our worship team there are some players I hear over 40 times a year, and I can't tell which preamp they are plugged into - ParaDI, UltraDI, or K&K - unless I take a peek over at the area where they are interfaced with the board (all our preamps are out of sight from the audience).

[HighAndDry]

interesting discussion. I remember listening to those recordings that doug made of the matched and un matched pres with K & K. I couldnt tell the difference. I definitely want to add a mic. not sure if I want the k & K mic. very interested in checking out some different mics. the one that doug had mounted under the sound hole pointed out towards the neck (on the bridge side) looks interesting. how does the k & K mic that comes with the trinity upgrade sound? and I probably will be using this with a soundhole cover a lot too. I have zero experience with mics inside the guitar.

[aclarson]

I can't speak for all setups, but the impedance thing seems to be a big factor in my setup, I really don't like the tone on mine with the LR Baggs at all. Boomy and brittle are exactly what I heard.

Taylor DN3 w/Pure Mini ---> LR Baggs ---->Fishman SA220

Much preferred the Sansamp Bass Driver DI (1M input impedance) I already had, makes me wanna try the K&K or Redeye.

I just posted a thread with details of my experience here: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=250846

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Originally Posted by kydave

There is an impedence mismatch with the K&K pickup and the Baggs preamps (all).
...snip...

I'm bumping this old thread to start a discussion about the issue of pickup/preamp impedance matching.

I've seen a lot of talk about how the lower output impedance of the K&K Pure Mini (1 MegOhm) is somehow not compatible with the higher input impedance of the Baggs Para DI preamp (10 MegOhm).

However, I don't think this is how impedance compatibility works. I believe that a general rule is that a lower impedance signal (output) connected to a higher impedance input is completely compatible.

The way it was explained to me is that a very high input impedance acts like a highway with many lanes, while the low output impedance is like very light traffic. So, the high input impedance can handle a very wide range of different output impedance. A problem arises when a higher output impedance (lots of traffic) is sent into a lower input impedance (a highway with just a few lanes).

So, the high 10 MegOhm input impedance of the Baggs preamps serves both high impedance passive signals (K&K) and low impedance outputs like those from active pickup systems (Baggs Element) equally well.

To further support this, consider that while the Baggs Para DI has an input impedance of 10 MegOhm, their Active Element pickup has a Low Z output impedance of 800 ohm. Clearly these are designed to be fully compatible.

[kydave]

This from our resident electronics advisor over at UMGF:

Is it absolutely necessary to also get an external K&K preamp in order to have the pickup sound it's best?"

For the K&K Passive to sound its best, it needs to "look into" an impedance load of 1 MegOhm (one million Ohms) at the first stage of amplification. Since not many inputs nowadays provide this, some sort of impedance-matching interface is usually required. Into what exactly will you be plugging your K&K?

"I have a Baggs Para DI. Will that work as well with the Mini as the K&K preamp?"

Unfortunately not: although most worthy, it has an input impedance of 10 MegOhms which is ten times higher than is optimal for the K&K Passive. This produces an excessively "hot", bloated and bassy response, which can be corrected to some extent with eq but prevention is always better than cure.

"Does the Mini still sound really good if it's just plugged straight into a good PA, without using any preamp between the guitar and PA?"

No, far from it: the Line inputs on mixers typically have an input impedance of only 10 KilOhms (ten thousand Ohms) which is too low for the K&K by a factor of a hundred (i.e. one hundredth of the required load). This produces a thin, trebly and harsh response which no amount of eq can cure.

This has been my experience. While not bad with my Baggs Para, the sound is better with the K&K Pure XLR. I owned a couple of Para DI before the K&K switch. Still have them and they are a great product. I've also now got a couple of the K&K preamps (I use K&K in a lot of instruments).

[markcrawford]

I keep saying it, so I'll say it again. The KK mach 2 is VERY different from the KK xlr. Has a not5ch, but also has more clarity. The 18 volt thing is real. The treble and mid controls are different. Jack from KK told me this as well. I have both and one is more clear and more detailed..that simple. No necessarily better depending on the guitar.