Picks - speed bevels and a discovery.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I find this research remarkable- not saying it is wrong of your client base - but I can't imagine it is true of the pick market for "boutique" or S2secialikspicks.

Frankly - there is no point having a bevel in a thin pick, and I'm not sure that you can do any amount of intricate picking with a thin (under 1 m/m) pick anyway - far more suited to strumming.

I see the main "specialist" pick products as both BC and Wegen.
The thinnest pick the BC offer (with one exception) and Wegen is a 40 - i.e. a 1m/m. Even the copicat Dunlop Primetones start at 1.4 or 1.5 m/m.

This tells me that there are two distinct parts of the market:

The "specialist" pickers whose most specialist picks are mostly over 1 m/m and will have bevels.

Then there is the larger less caring players who buy the 40 p (or 40 cent) those who buy teardrops with death's heads or other pointless slogans on them from in a guitar shop counter.

Two distinct markets.

I understand you questioning these numbers. I was shocked myself when we collected that data. But those are pretty accurate figures.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

I understand you questioning these numbers. I was shocked myself when we collected that data. But those are pretty accurate figures.

I don't doubt those numbers.People I play with, good players with expensive instruments, use "whatever" more than anything else. Those that might use better picks use them as bought and don't fiddle with them.

Mandolin players are a bit more attentive to their picks but not much more.

First time I ever even heard of anyone modifying picks was an interview with Norman Blake when he commented on making changes to the standard Fender picks he used then. He didn't give details but that was the first I heard it.

The guys who used real tortoise were used to it as they had to adjust them as they wore down.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by HHP

I don't doubt those numbers.People I play with, good players with expensive instruments, use "whatever" more than anything else. Those that might use better picks use them as bought and don't fiddle with them.

Mandolin players are a bit more attentive to their picks but not much more.

First time I ever even heard of anyone modifying picks was an interview with Norman Blake when he commented on making changes to the standard Fender picks he used then. He didn't give details but that was the first I heard it.

The guys who used real tortoise were used to it as they had to adjust them as they wore down.

Funny example: I regularly play with a group of about twenty players. Of those, only two (2) are even interested in upscale picks, and I'm in the fricking business! And some of these folks are excellent players. I don't try to sell them anything, because I'm there for the music, not business, but that's just a tiny example.

Another example: I was at a large song circle a week ago. I was chatting to a buddy of mine, one of the best acoustic lead players in Los Angeles, and he'd never heard of upscale picks. No interest, happy with what he has.

We are a tiny, tiny group of players who even care about these things. I bet if you added the entire list of boutique pick manufacturers together into one lump, it would equal less than 1% of the total pick market in the U.S. I'd almost lay my bottom dollar on that.

We are, as I say proudly, the lunatic fringe.

memmer

[Mr. Jelly]

I have done my share of pick searching over the years. But that was mostly because of the way I evolved learning the guitar. I moved from strumming to lead electric guitar to flatpicking acoustic guitar. Plus doing the finger picking experience. There is also the aspect that picks are cheap things to play around with. I think I could be just as happy with any old style thick pick.

[Charmed Life Picks]

You know what I realized reading this thread? I have always been a pick nerd. And almost everyone I meet on AGF who experiments with accessories, and specifically picks, has been doing it for decades; it's not a new thing.

Speaking only for myself, I've always been insatiably curious about picks. I remember buying my first TS picks from McCabes in the seventies, after reading interviews with hot Bluegrassers.

Anyway, I wonder if that's been your experience. Have you always been a pick/bevel nerd, or is this a more recent development? I'll probably start a brand-new thread about this at some point, as I find it intriguing.

sm

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

I have done my share of pick searching over the years. But that was mostly because of the way I evolved learning the guitar. I moved from strumming to lead electric guitar to flatpicking acoustic guitar. Plus doing the finger picking experience. There is also the aspect that picks are cheap things to play around with. I think I could be just as happy with any old style thick pick.

Sounds like your playing is quite varied, Jelly. Mine is similar, although I actually don't own an electric (but have about 15 acoustics).

I've found that I play much more fingerstyle as I get older. Has that happened to you as well? And I started playing nylon about ten years ago and really love it, such different tonality, particularly wonderful on minors and major sevenths. Just curious.

scott memmer

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

Rog, it's all over the map re bevels. I've been playing for forty years and can't hear or feel the difference, but this is probably because I'm not as good a player as other folks. Also, I'm not a true flatpicker, not a big Bluegrasser.

I have friends who are excellent players -- much better than me -- who swear by them, and I believe them.

At CLP, our research showed that players playing over 1.0 mm thickness (which, by the way, is a very small segment of the total pick market, 15% at most) prefer to do their own bevels. They rebevel bevels. So the average recreational player (which includes me), which is 80-85% of the market, ends up paying extra for a feature they don't want or can't use. Those are the real numbers. Also, the vast majority of the guitarists play below 1.0 mm thickness, all the way down to .40 mm.

That's my take,
Scott Memmer

Just catching up .. Scott I'm not disbelieving you, but I find your research percentages and this - "the vast majority of the guitarists play below 1.0 mm thickness, all the way down to .40 mm" ... remarkable.

I'm assuming that the majority of your clientele are light strummers? So, if this is the case why are they buying expensive Vespal picks?

The thinnest BC and Wegen picks (bar one tiny jazz pick) are far thicker - which is what is necessary for intricate picking.

I'm confused.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Just catching up .. Scott I'm not disbelieving you, but I find your research percentages and this - "the vast majority of the guitarists play below 1.0 mm thickness, all the way down to .40 mm" ... remarkable.

I'm assuming that the majority of your clientele are light strummers? So, if this is the case why are they buying expensive Vespal picks?

The thinnest BC and Wegen picks (bar one tiny jazz pick) are far thicker - which is what is necessary for intricate picking.

I'm confused.

Silly, no offense taken, ever, my friend. I always enjoy your posts, and HHP's, and so many others here from which I've learned, and continue to learn, so much.

I'll try to make this short, but you know what a windbag I am.

I'm certain it was my lack of articulation on that previous post, not your lack of understanding, that threw you off regarding the data we've collected.

To clarify: The entire boutique pick market, all bundled together, is almost certainly less than one percent of the total pick market in the U.S. Yes, those players who "take the plunge" are likely playing picks thicker than 1.0 mm, but that is an infinitesimal portion of the entire pick market. Look at this thread as a perfect example. AGF members proudly occupy, as I do, the lunatic fringe of the acoustic guitar world. And even within this thread almost everyone has said they never have tried, and never will try, an expensive pick. And I say more power to them.

Let's look at the mass market.

Example: Dunlop Primetones don't go above 1.50 mm. They go down to .73, then .88. I can guarantee you with almost 100% certainty that the thinnest ones are their best sellers. In the Ultex and Tortex lines, the thickest is 1.14 mm. See what I'm talking about? This is the largest pick vendor in the world and 3/4 of their line is 1.0 mm or below. Fender, the second largest, probably doesn't go above that.

So, to clarify, I agree that people buying boutique picks on occasion play thicker plectrum. But even Blue Chip, which almost everyone, including me, agrees is the standard bearer in this market space -- look at their homepage. Notice what is always listed as their three most popular models: TD-35 (.90 mm), TD-40 (1.0 mm) and the Chris Thile model CT-55. So even there people buy the thinner ones probably ten-to-one.

I won't get into a CL sales pitch, other than to say we saw a huge, ignored market below 1.0 mm and so we've gone there, and it is the bedrock of what we do. The vast mass of acoustic players are average, recreational players who like a lot of flex in their picks. Why is everyone ignoring these people?

Sorry if I dragged this out. I always enjoy your posts and just wanted to make sure you understood the numbers.

P.S. I'm out supporting a buddy's gig tonight, so if I don't get back to you right away I will as soon as I can. Let me know if this helped clarify what I had stated in the previous post. Take care....

scott memmer

[HHP]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

Silly, no offense taken, ever, my friend. I always enjoy your posts, and HHP's, and so many others here from which I've learned, and continue to learn, so much.

I'll try to make this short, but you know what a windbag I am.

I'm certain it was my lack of articulation on that previous post, not your lack of understanding, that threw you off regarding the data we've collected.

To clarify: The entire boutique pick market, all bundled together, is almost certainly less than one percent of the total pick market in the U.S. Yes, those players who "take the plunge" are likely playing picks thicker than 1.0 mm, but that is an infinitesimal portion of the entire pick market. Look at this thread as a perfect example. AGF members proudly occupy, as I do, the lunatic fringe of the acoustic guitar world. And even within this thread almost everyone has said they never have tried, and never will try, an expensive pick. And I say more power to them.

Let's look at the mass market.

Example: Dunlop Primetones don't go above 1.50 mm. They go down to .73, then .88. I can guarantee you with almost 100% certainty that the thinnest ones are their best sellers. In the Ultex and Tortex lines, the thickest is 1.14 mm. See what I'm talking about? This is the largest pick vendor in the world and 3/4 of their line is 1.0 mm or below. Fender, the second largest, probably doesn't go above that.

So, to clarify, I agree that people buying boutique picks on occasion player thicker plectrum. But even Blue Chip, which almost everyone including me agrees is the standard bearer in this market space, look at their homepage. Notice what is always listed as their three most popular models: TD-35 (.90 mm), TD-40 (1.0 mm) and the Chris Thile model CT-55. So even there people buy the thinner ones.

Sorry if I dragged this out. I always enjoy your posts and just wanted to make sure you understood the numbers.

One correction, Primetones go up to 3.0mm now in Ultex and they have polycarbonate Primetones up to 5.0mm. Got a few 2.5's to try and they were quite good.

[rokdog49]

I did some experimenting with very rudimentary tools and posted pictures of a speed bevel I was able to achieve on some Prime Tones.
Two things I noticed. First the picks glide off the strings easier so it's easier to pick. Second, the tone had more clarity, not necessarily brighter, cleaner maybe?

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

Silly, no offense taken, ever, my friend. I always enjoy your posts, and HHP's, and so many others here from which I've learned, and continue to learn, so much.

I'll try to make this short, but you know what a windbag I am.

I'm certain it was my lack of articulation on that previous post, not your lack of understanding, that threw you off regarding the data we've collected.

To clarify: The entire boutique pick market, all bundled together, is almost certainly less than one percent of the total pick market in the U.S. Yes, those players who "take the plunge" are likely playing picks thicker than 1.0 mm, but that is an infinitesimal portion of the entire pick market. Look at this thread as a perfect example. AGF members proudly occupy, as I do, the lunatic fringe of the acoustic guitar world. And even within this thread almost everyone has said they never have tried, and never will try, an expensive pick. And I say more power to them.

Let's look at the mass market.

Example: Dunlop Primetones don't go above 1.50 mm. They go down to .73, then .88. I can guarantee you with almost 100% certainty that the thinnest ones are their best sellers. In the Ultex and Tortex lines, the thickest is 1.14 mm. See what I'm talking about? This is the largest pick vendor in the world and 3/4 of their line is 1.0 mm or below. Fender, the second largest, probably doesn't go above that.

So, to clarify, I agree that people buying boutique picks on occasion play thicker plectrum. But even Blue Chip, which almost everyone, including me, agrees is the standard bearer in this market space -- look at their homepage. Notice what is always listed as their three most popular models: TD-35 (.90 mm), TD-40 (1.0 mm) and the Chris Thile model CT-55. So even there people buy the thinner ones probably ten-to-one.

I won't get into a CL sales pitch, other than to say we saw a huge, ignored market below 1.0 mm and so we've gone there, and it is the bedrock of what we do. The vast mass of acoustic players are average, recreational players who like a lot of flex in their picks. Why is everyone ignoring these people?

Sorry if I dragged this out. I always enjoy your posts and just wanted to make sure you understood the numbers.

P.S. I'm out supporting a buddy's gig tonight, so if I don't get back to you right away I will as soon as I can. Let me know if this helped clarify what I had stated in the previous post. Take care....

scott memmer

Hi Scott,

Thank you for taking the time to write this cogent explanation. I now understand.

My recent experiments to finish Tortex picks and whatever other old triangle picks I've dug out of my vast collection have also shown me that there is a minimum thickness to which a bevel can reasonably be added, and so now I understand why you don't bevel finish your Vespal picks.

I see that you now offer "black" picks and Tortoiseshell looking picks - can you tell us what material they are made of?

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

Sounds like your playing is quite varied, Jelly. Mine is similar, although I actually don't own an electric (but have about 15 acoustics).

I've found that I play much more fingerstyle as I get older. Has that happened to you as well?
scott memmer

Well it was until I broke my hand. Then while I was recovering I just wanted to do some flatpicking. When I got the cast off my finger pads were soft and my one finger is now in a different place. I am totally learning to do chords again. If I'm lucky I'll be able to play without pain someday as the whole hand has allot of healing to do. I have to work at doing a C chord. And to do it my arm needs to be in a different place than it used to. Bottom line is playing chords and playing the melody while doing it may be history for me. But I am having fun flat picking with two and some times three fingers. I am amazed at what I'm learning now. I always have played partial chords using three and four strings. Now I am learning to pick two strings out of a chord which gives you at least three options per chord per position.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Hi Scott,

Thank you for taking the time to write this cogent explanation. I now understand.

My recent experiments to finish Tortex picks and whatever other old triangle picks I've dug out of my vast collection have also shown me that there is a minimum thickness to which a bevel can reasonably be added, and so now I understand why you don't bevel finish your Vespal picks.

I see that you now offer "black" picks and Tortoiseshell looking picks - can you tell us what material they are made of?

Monsieur Mustache, good to hear back and glad my last post helped clarify things.

I’m going to keep my responses to your questions very general and as short as possible, because the main board is not for sales pitches and it’s important I respect that. Anyone can contact me off the board for other inquiries.

1) The “tortoise” design material is called casein plastic. It comes from combining milk with an acid. It was discovered in 1895, in Germany, and is the first major bioplastic in the history of mankind. One of its best attributes is it can be colored almost any color and always looks stunning when buffed and polished. For more than a century it has been known as the "queen" of all plastics, for its stunning looks, almost like jewelry. It also happens to make a heckuva pick. Our “red” series is the same stuff, different color; not sure why, but when machining it, it definitely is denser than the tortoise.

2) The black. Not to be evasive, but we spent two years of R&D on this line and consider its identity part of our intellectual property. It was an exhaustive search, trust me. However, some general good news for the future: There are more than one hundred (100) industrial plastics that have never been made into guitar picks, ever, by anyone. We are actually just at the dawn of a very exciting era in the pick industry.

Any more specific questions, folks, please take it off the board and email me directly at charmedlifepicks @ gmail.

Thanks Very Much, Silly,
Scott