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  #16  
Old 01-12-2018, 09:45 AM
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vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
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As a disclaimer I am not in the Martin "camp" Nor in the Taylor camp. I own both brands as well as others...

But the truth is that Taylor shifted the paradigm of guitars sound and build. While some folks simplify it and say that Taylor guitars are "brighter", IMO that is an oversimplification. While some lower end Taylors and those with Cedar tops are brighter guitars overall, the higher end Taylors aren't generically brighter, but fuller and richer sounding with extended overtones and resultant harmonics. And Taylor guitars exemplify today's "modern" sound. And Martin is following suit- starting with the D28 redesign.

I believe that Martin has recognized that the only way forward is to go along. While there are folks that still love the old traditional acoustic sounds, many our sonic expectations have migrated to that that modern sound. And while every hand has it's own neck preferences, perhaps Martin is following Taylor into the world of wider nuts and shallower necks. I don't know, but how would you explain changing the nut width on such an iconic guitar as the D28?

Actually, from a sound standpoint I think Martin is doing the right thing, but should have a different model designation. I know that Taylor does this and IMO it a disingenuous marketing ploy, confusing the unwitting buyers who don't know the difference between a 2016 and 2018 model called by the same name.
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  #17  
Old 01-12-2018, 09:52 AM
ataylor ataylor is offline
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I'm not sure about the New Coke analogy. If anything, the changes Martin is making to their standard lineup are more akin to Coca-Cola going back to their tried and true recipe and iconic bottle shape. These guitars will look and sound closer to their golden era instruments of the 30s and 40s and less like the overbuilt instruments of the 60s and 70s.
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  #18  
Old 01-12-2018, 09:57 AM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
As a disclaimer I am not in the Martin "camp" Nor in the Taylor camp. I own both brands as well as others...

But the truth is that Taylor shifted the paradigm of guitars sound and build. While some folks simplify it and say that Taylor guitars are "brighter", IMO that is an oversimplification. While some lower end Taylors and those with Cedar tops are brighter guitars overall, the higher end Taylors aren't generically brighter, but fuller and richer sounding with extended overtones and resultant harmonics. And Taylor guitars exemplify today's "modern" sound. And Martin is following suit- starting with the D28 redesign.

I believe that Martin has recognized that the only way forward is to go along. While there are folks that still love the old traditional acoustic sounds, many our sonic expectations have migrated to that that modern sound. And while every hand has it's own neck preferences, perhaps Martin is following Taylor into the world of wider nuts and shallower necks. I don't know, but how would you explain changing the nut width on such an iconic guitar as the D28?

Actually, from a sound standpoint I think Martin is doing the right thing, but should have a different model designation. I know that Taylor does this and IMO it a disingenuous marketing ploy, confusing the unwitting buyers who don't know the difference between a 2016 and 2018 model called by the same name.
Brother, I agree with you 100% on all your points.
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  #19  
Old 01-12-2018, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
As a disclaimer I am not in the Martin "camp" Nor in the Taylor camp. I own both brands as well as others...

But the truth is that Taylor shifted the paradigm of guitars sound and build. While some folks simplify it and say that Taylor guitars are "brighter", IMO that is an oversimplification. While some lower end Taylors and those with Cedar tops are brighter guitars overall, the higher end Taylors aren't generically brighter, but fuller and richer sounding with extended overtones and resultant harmonics. And Taylor guitars exemplify today's "modern" sound. And Martin is following suit- starting with the D28 redesign.

I believe that Martin has recognized that the only way forward is to go along. While there are folks that still love the old traditional acoustic sounds, many our sonic expectations have migrated to that that modern sound. And while every hand has it's own neck preferences, perhaps Martin is following Taylor into the world of wider nuts and shallower necks. I don't know, but how would you explain changing the nut width on such an iconic guitar as the D28?

Actually, from a sound standpoint I think Martin is doing the right thing, but should have a different model designation. I know that Taylor does this and IMO it a disingenuous marketing ploy, confusing the unwitting buyers who don't know the difference between a 2016 and 2018 model called by the same name.
I agree with what you are saying. However, isn't the D-28 alluding back to the forward shifted days? If anything, this is a nod to the guitars of old and their unique sounds. But, what Martin is brilliantly doing is giving the consumer a more vintage sounding and looking guitar, but with a modern feel.

Again, I do agree with you, I am just saying that their sound in theory is actually a homage to more vintage Martins. Where they are becoming modern is in their specs and feel, not necessarily sound. If anything I've noticed, Martin is getting more clarity and top movement out of there guitars, which is indicative of what people really want...prewar guitars.
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  #20  
Old 01-12-2018, 10:17 AM
ChrisE ChrisE is offline
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I also like Taylors and Martins. The post above reminds me that when I was visiting the Martin factory in 2015, I noticed a couple of Taylors in the Martin "sound lab."

When I mentioned this to the tour guide, he said, "Trust me--they're doing the same thing with our guitars."
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  #21  
Old 01-12-2018, 11:19 AM
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vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Shades of Blue View Post
I agree with what you are saying. However, isn't the D-28 alluding back to the forward shifted days? If anything, this is a nod to the guitars of old and their unique sounds. But, what Martin is brilliantly doing is giving the consumer a more vintage sounding and looking guitar, but with a modern feel.

Again, I do agree with you, I am just saying that their sound in theory is actually a homage to more vintage Martins. Where they are becoming modern is in their specs and feel, not necessarily sound. If anything I've noticed, Martin is getting more clarity and top movement out of there guitars, which is indicative of what people really want...prewar guitars.

I don't know that I agree. The new D28 is more resonant and vibrant than any of it's old guitars. I was in Miami a few weeks ago and got to play some expensive vintage guitars. And while it was cool to hold history in my hands, the sounds they produced were what I perceive as "vintage" but not something I'd go out of my way to own because of the sounds. I'm not into "forward shifting" of the braces or any construction mumbo-jumbo, but am solely interested in sound and feel. And my impression of the new D28 is a modern sound, not a vintage one. And the nut width... How can you argue that they are not following Taylor?

Don't get me wrong, I think the new Martin guitars will capture back a lot of the buyers who like the Martin brand but previously prone to buy Taylors for the sound. My gripe is calling it a D28 when it needs its own designation, if only adding some letters to it like the HD28. Taylor btw is notorious for making radical changes to it's models and keeping the name. Look at a 2008 614ce, then compare it with a 2011 614 and then a 2016 614. They all have the same model name and the only thing that makes these guitars remotely similar are the maple back and sides and sitka top.
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  #22  
Old 01-12-2018, 12:58 PM
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I'm willing to bet that a lot of people who have the "old" versions would be willing to buy a "new" version whereas they likely would not buy another of one they already have.

Martin is in the business of selling new guitars, and this will surely help them toward that goal.
Correct. It is marketing at its best.
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  #23  
Old 01-12-2018, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
I don't know that I agree. The new D28 is more resonant and vibrant than any of it's old guitars. I was in Miami a few weeks ago and got to play some expensive vintage guitars. And while it was cool to hold history in my hands, the sounds they produced were what I perceive as "vintage" but not something I'd go out of my way to own because of the sounds. I'm not into "forward shifting" of the braces or any construction mumbo-jumbo, but am solely interested in sound and feel. And my impression of the new D28 is a modern sound, not a vintage one. And the nut width... How can you argue that they are not following Taylor?

Don't get me wrong, I think the new Martin guitars will capture back a lot of the buyers who like the Martin brand but previously prone to buy Taylors for the sound. My gripe is calling it a D28 when it needs its own designation, if only adding some letters to it like the HD28. Taylor btw is notorious for making radical changes to it's models and keeping the name. Look at a 2008 614ce, then compare it with a 2011 614 and then a 2016 614. They all have the same model name and the only thing that makes these guitars remotely similar are the maple back and sides and sitka top.
I don't think we disagree as much as you think. Compared to an "actual" vintage guitar, yeah sure, I agree with you. Vintage guitars are darker and have had time for the wonderful aging process to affect their tone. Let's talk new guitars. All Martin did was shift the braces forward (according to them), which is "supposedly" how they used to be made in the old days before they centralized them. I don't see any Taylor-esque qualities with moving braces forward. Just because it results in a brighter guitar, doesn't really make it more Taylor like.

Yes, I do think that spec wise, as far as nut width and neck profile are concerned, Martin is taking a play from the Taylor playbook. But Martin is not angling braces, changing their patterns, or creating any "innovation" in bracing (see what I did there?).

Are they doing this as a result of Taylor? Oh definitely, I agree with you! But I can't say that just moving braces forward catches Martin's hand in Taylor's cookie jar so to speak.
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  #24  
Old 01-12-2018, 02:08 PM
Sagebrush Tom Sagebrush Tom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
As a disclaimer I am not in the Martin "camp" Nor in the Taylor camp. I own both brands as well as others...
I know that Taylor does this and IMO it a disingenuous marketing ploy, confusing the unwitting buyers who don't know the difference between a 2016 and 2018 model called by the same name.
If you thought Martin had too many models now, there would way too many too think about.
I own a revamped 00-18 and i couldn't imagine Martin calling it anything else but maybe they could add an *asterisk meaning 2016 on. Now my 000-15m has the same exact neck shape as my 00-18 and also the same neck shape as all the updated models. If you don't like the MLO neck, as i didn't at first but grew accustomed to it, you will have to adapt, overcome and improvise as gunny highway once said.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:08 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Business is business. The first task of ANY business is to STAY in business.

This was a business decision on Martin's part, and a good one, so far as I can tell. More power to them.


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  #26  
Old 01-12-2018, 02:12 PM
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well, since you've tried all the new ones and have that viewpoint, then taylor or gibson may be more to your making. everything on the agf, is subjective.

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  #27  
Old 01-12-2018, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Social Exodus View Post
Honestly, I don't think the various guitar makers spend a lot of time and energy hating on one another.

That activity is more of a forum thing in my mind.
Uh, I'm betting you're wrong. I used to be in a competitive business and you wouldn't believe the lows that competing companies will stoop to if they think it will give them a millimeter advantage against a competitor. It's ugly out there, believe it.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:27 PM
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Uh, I'm betting you're wrong. I used to be in a competitive business and you wouldn't believe the lows that competing companies will stoop to if they think it will give them a millimeter advantage against a competitor. It's ugly out there, believe it.
From the thread welcoming Martin as a sponsor of the AGF:

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The photo was taken in California. Chris and Jean have been friends for decades. These guys, Chris, Bob, Bill (RIP), Richard Hoover, all have a close and accessible relationship. They often help each other out of jams and offer advice to each other. As well as share trade information. It's great when you get to see them all together. You think about their collective minds and the experience they have accumulated. It's quite astonishing. The second photo is is pretty cool too. It's a little bit of TLC...
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  #29  
Old 01-12-2018, 02:36 PM
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Actually, from a sound standpoint I think Martin is doing the right thing, but should have a different model designation.

I agree 100% as well. And I'm someone inclined to buy the new D-28 with the wider spacing.
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  #30  
Old 01-12-2018, 02:53 PM
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OK -- how about this? D-28+, 000-18+, etc for revamped post-2016 models. Not unlike the Ford Escort versus the Escort LX model. Then in a couple more years they can call those modifications the ++ version.

I don't have a dog in this fight, since all of my Martin's are now sold off and I am quite unlikely to ever buy another. I will try them out as the opportunities arise, but I've "been there, done that". For those of you that want them, I'm leaving extra stock available in the marketplace -- more for you.
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