Epi vs. Gibson

[cody18]

I have played acoustic for a little over three years now. I am looking into getting an electric guitar, whenever I can talk the wife into it, and am looking for some help. I listen to Switchfoot a lot and really like the sound that they get with their LP's. I was wondering what the differences between the Gibson and the Epi are. I assume the Epi LP's are produced outside the US. I have seen Epi Elitist editions of the LP Standard that have American made pickups and such, but are there any other differences besides the headstock. About a year and a half ago I had a bad experience buying an acoustic that I thought would be an upgrade from my starter and realized that sometimes a higher price tag doesn't mean you get a better guitar. (For those wondering, I live in Germany, was fairly new to guitars but knew I needed something that sounded better, and had to buy online. So I bought a Dean, thinking a guitar in the $600-$700 range would be an improvement on what I had. Big mistake.) So I am willing to spend the money to get the Gibson if it is worth it, but if I can just buy the Epi and "Americanize" it with Gibson pups and such, then that would be great too. Thanks for your help.

[Bob Womack]

Having both, I can speak to both. The Epis are made in Asia to Gibson's specs. They feature less expensive electronics, hardware, finshes, and build. Many are wired entirely differently from Gibsons. You can spend a pile on upgrading but still not end up with a comparable guitar. For instance, the maple caps on the Epi Les Pauls are significantly thinner than the maple cap on the American Les Pauls. That cap contributes to the sound of the guitar.

Were it me, this was to be my main axe, and money was tight, I'd save the extra pesos and get a Les Paul Studio. It has the same basic build and electronics as a Standard sans the binding but has a polyurethane finish. By the time you upgrade the Epi, you are in the same ballpark as the Studio.

I use my Epi as a slide guitar only. It has problems with feedback when used at moderately high classic rock gains and the fretwork is spotty. I need to replace the pickups with Gibsons PAFs or Burstbuckers and rewire the guitar like a Gibson. I probably should replace the hardware as well as it is losing its gold finish even though I've taken care of it.

Bob

[Telejonz]

Check out the latest edition of Guitar Player. They have reviews of two Epi LPs, the Ultra and the Elitist.

They gave the Elitist a pretty good evaluation.

[Taylor_Nut]

I was in this position about 4 mos ago. I decided to go with a LP Studio with a worn brown finish. I don't know why they call it that since it does not look worn at all. No Poly finish and no binding...I think it looks great with the chrome pups and black knobs. This mahogany is also very cool looking. I build furniture so I especially like the simple elegance this guitar has.

Playability was also superb after I adjusted the action.

I went with the Gibson LP for a few reasons. 1) Made in the US 2) Holds value better than Epi 3) Always wanted one since I live in Kalamazoo...home of the Gibson Guitar before it moved to Nashville. 4) I love the sound.

I must have played 200 guitars before I settled on this one...several Epi LPs in that mix. I have been playing acoustic for ~25yrs...just now thinking about e-guitar...funny 'ol world!

I picked up the LP at guitar center for $640 out the door.

[moo cow]

i used to have a epi sheraton semi hollow, and have since upgraded to the guitar it is copying, a es335. besides the pickups i can't find any real life differences. there might be some difference on paper but i can't feel, hear, or notice it. (besides the pickups!, you'll probably want to change those)

[~j~]

look at heritage guitars, they produce les pauls on the original gibson factory machines. They play great, sound great, and cost less. I pity the fool!

[Nigel Tufnel]

I have played many guitars in my less than illustrous career. Some Epis are great. I currently own an LP Standard, Sg, Dot and AJ10CE. All of them are outstanding guitars and have been a great bang for the buck. I modded the LP with Gibson 490 and 500 pickups with a JP wiring mod, and Sperzel tuners. I would put it up against any stock LP under $2500, for sound and playablity. The SG got Rio Grande Texas BBQ p/us and it growls and roars enough to snap yer head off. It also cleans up real nice at lower volumes and gain. The dot is pretty much stock, except for some cosmetic changes, and the AJ10 is completely stock. Both are real nice guitars. I played a lot of epis to find these among the rest though. I have also seen $7,000 Gibsons that were peices of junk and had major design flaws. Play before you pay.

[Doc]

I have to agree with Bob's response. I.e., one can put lots of money into a clone Epi with no guarantee that it won't still be a mediocre guitar when the dust settles.

With respect to Epi owners, I've never played one that I felt came near the real thing. I think the folks who stock up on clone guitars care more about bragging rights on the number of instruments they own than they do about how well they actually play and sound.

Also, remember that the Gibson will always retain significant value. It's a "real" instrument. I don't think you can regard the Epi accordingly.

Doc

[Thumbwrapper]

Another Gibson and Epi owner here. I agree with those who maintain that an Epi LP is NOT up to the level of a Gibson, but they are also less than half the price of their Gibby counterparts. The few Epi LPs I've played were pretty darn good from my novice vantage point and I wouldn't feel at all hesitant to buy one if I had the need. Keep in mind though, you will be spending $$ on your brand new guitar to bring it to it's full potential and then you still have a guitar that is not worth what you have into it and almost certainly, never will be.

Most Epi LPs are wonderfully finished and extremely good looking guitars (not a true nitrocell finish but does that really matter?). The ones I've played all needed some level of work to bring them up to their full playing potential, and my Epi DOT is no exception. The pickups were (are) lackluster (to be nice), the pup selector toggle needs almost immediate replacement as does the input jack, and the pickguards look like they were hand carved by a 6 year old. Lastly, unless you get one with real 18:1 Grovers, plan on replacing the machine heads also. And to be honest, I have a sneaking suspicion that the "authentic" Grovers on my DOT are somehow, not all that "authentic" or are inexpensive tuners designed by Grover for Epiphone. The Grovers on my DOT are terrible....they will be gone very soon.

My DOT is a killer guitar, now. It was a "nice guitar for the money" when I purchased it used and bone stock. The fact that I got the it for slightly more than half of what it cost the original owner, only 8 months after it first left the dealer, should tell you something about Epi resale values, if that is of concern to you. I made up the difference that I saved in modifications, fret leveling/dressing (the fretwork was horrific) and a professional setup and I can honestly say now that the DOT is a killer guitar! I've played real Gibby 335s, ES-137s, and owned a classic 50s era Gibson ES since I was 12 years old, and this DOT plays second fiddle to no other in terms of playability and tone. I actually find myself playing the it much more often than my Paul.

Lastly, the Elitist EPIs are are whole different animal than the standard, Korean made Epis. IMO, if you're going to spend the $$ for an Elitist, may as well just buy a Gibson and be done with it. Also, do plan on also spending a few $$ even on a new Gibby LP. Perhaps a fret leveling and proper setup is all, but it will make a world of difference, even on a new Gib.

Good luck!

[EJG]

As you can see from the above posts, there is a wide range of opinions on this. When opinions vary so much, its usually a sign that there is no universal truth, and I think that's the case here. Some Epi owners are truly satisfied with their guitars. And that's great.

Some Gibson owners could never be satisfied with an Epi, due to either real or percieved flaws in the Epi. For them, only a real Gibson will do, and hence they should get one.

Nobody is "right"; if *I* think an Epi sounds as good as a Gibson, no amount of someone telling me I'm wrong will change what *I* hear. And vice versa.

So, its up to you to decide. Play both. If you like the Epi and can see yourself having fun and being satisfied with it, get it. If not, save up the extra $$ and get a Gibby.

One other thing to keep in mind; if you play out, it's *really*doubtful if anyone in the audience could tell the difference when the guitar is in the mix. But if having a better guitar inspires you to practice more, or play better, they would be able to discern that.

Helpful, right?

[jyee]

I agree with EJG, there's a wide range of opinions on epi vs. gibson (some real, some perceived)... but some of this is due to the wide variance of epi vs. gibson specs. Personally I think that if you can get an older epiphone, you'll find better adherance to gibson spec and a closer match in sound. For example, i just bought an old (80's) japanese epiphone thunderbird bass, it's got real thunderbird pickups and a set neck and is virtually identical (in look and sound) to the current gibson studio thunderbird iv. the current line of epiphone thunderbird basses have bolt on necks and sound significantly different from the real thing. It seems that over the past 10-15 years, the epiphone line has seen major cuts in quality (in most, but not all of its lines) to save a buck/make more money.

[Bob Womack]

I have no doubt that the best Epi example on the rack probably plays better and may even sound better than the worst Gibson example on the rack. My son's Epi Explorer, for example, happens to have a superb action which makes many off-the-rack Gibsons pale by comparison. With pickups, wiring, and some new hardware, it'll be a great guitar.

The biggest probem is that the worst Epi is far worse than the worse Gibson. When this question comes up, I can see a young player buying an Epi with the usual problems, thinking he's got a handle on things. If he gigs with the guitar, within a year the pickup selector will probably fail, probably at a gig. This has happened to both the Epis in our household and to everyone I know who owns an Epi. Uh-oh, no neck pickup. What happens if this occurs during an audition? The pots will probably begin to fail soon as well. Uh-oh. No volume control, possibly no output. He'll eventually gain up and get uncontrollable feedback.

Now he's looking at time in the shop and probably $250+ to get the guitar under control electronically. What if his playing skills grow and he wants the action improved? He may not find out until that moment that instead of an $80 setup he's looking at a $280 refret and plane job to take care of a hump or compound bow in the neck and the frets which may have been ground down at the factory to cover for it.

My point is that a good Gibson LP Studio is a better starting point than most of the Epis I've seen. Sure, you will probably need a setup on the Gibby, but that will probably be all.

Please understand that I welcome the Epi guitars to the scene with open arms: In the seventies, all we had were Univox, Aria, Electra, and Ibanez bolt-neck copies which weren't anywhere NEAR the quality of the Epis and didn't come near the LP sound. I know of which I write: I used a Univox Paul as a slide guitar for years. Not close. What is available for the money today is astounding, and I'm glad to see it. By the way, my first decent electric I bought used in '73 was a red, two pickup Epi "Strat-ish" with a hot, slim maple neck which I miss very much, so its not as if I love Mr. Juszkiewicz and hate Mr. Stathopoulou.

Now here's the irony and an admission: By '94, I had finally worn down the frets on my '74 Kalamazoo-built Les Paul to the point where a refret was unavoidable. During the refret, my luthier planed the neck to take care of a compound bow from the factory which had limited the playability of the guitar for twenty years. So Gibson has its share of warts. two-hundred fifty dollars later, the guitar has the best action of any electric I've ever played. Over my nearly thirty years of ownership, I've worn out more than one pot doing volume swells with my little finger but the rest of the hardware and electronics are original, including those nasty Kluson tuners.

So chose what you like and like what you choose.

Bob

[EJG]

The only caveat I might add to Bob's opinion is in reagrd to the Epi Elites. Now, I have NEVER actually even seen an Epi Elite, but all the reviews I've read have been glowing. I suspect (but certainly don't KNOW) that the reliability of the components in an Epi Elite would be on par with a Gibson Studio.

But what do I know? I'm a telecaster guy!

[meridian]

Had a really nice Epi LP Custom with a gorgeous sunburst, etc. LOOKED great, but truth be told, when I returned it I didn't miss it. When I replaced it with an LP Std LE, there really was no comparison. The Gibson just felt, played and sounded SO much better than the Epi. YMMV.

I love the IDEA of cheap guitars, but have found out -- the hard way -- that you DO get what you pay for more often than not.

[ramsa]

I agree with the comment on Heritage Guitars from Mich.
Model would be H-150CM.
Got one, and love it.
With HRWs or Duncan Seth Lovers it's a cool way to maximize your dollars spent.
Killer instruments for 1/2 the cost of a Gibson of same quality.
You'd like 'em.