Applying a hand-rubbed old Gibson-style sunburst

[Wade Hampton]

Hi - I was hoping that perhaps some of the builders and serious instrument enthusiasts who frequent this subforum might be able give a friend of mine and me some guidance. My buddy is a hobby luthier who builds guitars and mandolin family instruments for himself and a small circle of friends.

Up to this point he's built only natural finish instruments, which he finishes with a French polish finish rather than nitro-cellulose lacquer. What he wants to do on his next couple of guitars (one of which is for me) is put an old-style Gibson Cremona brown hand-rubbed sunburst on the tops, perhaps something along the same lines as these:

These aren't identical to each other, obviously, but they all appear to have been rubbed by hand, not applied with a spray gun.

What I'm asking you all is whether you know of any instructional materials that show and explain how to get this sort of finish. Neither he nor I expect instant expertise, and fully understand that it will take practice to get facile with this technique. But it would help a lot if there are some detailed and accurate instruction manuals/DVD's/YouTube videos available.

Any suggestions you might have are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,


Wade Hampton Miller

[Island Mfg.]

Hi Wade.

I've done one hand rubbed burst. It was a cherry burst, and went to the forum founder JR.





I used a water-based eco-friendly leather dye that I sourced here in Canada. The TransTint/Colortone dyes that you can get from Stewmac or Wood Essence work well and I believe are what most guys use.

I cut my dyes with alcohol as I did not want to introduce too much water into the top. I applied colour directly to the wood, rubbed until I was happy with the colour, then brushed on some magic sauce (which just enhanced grain/evened the colour out). I then applied a few coats of a wipe-on varnish and then French Polished on top of that.

Most guys seem to make this out to be real difficult...I didn't find it so, though granted my results aren't actually historic Gibson accurate... Practice on a scrap or two first to get the feel, then have at it! It was an enjoyable process and I hope to do more down the road.

Fraulini does them quite well and had a blog entry, with a helpful video, on the process. He uses the Transtint dyes.

http://fraulini.blogspot.ca/2012/07/...-sunburst.html

Feel free to drop me a PM/email/call if you have any questions

[Nort]

Wade, there are some pictures on a thread over at the Mandolin Cafe of a
F4 style mandolin built by Gail Hester, it appears that she does hand applied
shading/sunburst, you might try contacting her, here are some links.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ghlight=Hester

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ghlight=Hester

Also, I believe Dan Voight of Voight Mandolins also hand applies his shading or
sunburst to his mandolins.

Website: http://www.danvoightmandolins.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Voigh...37319912963274

[Wade Hampton]

Thanks, Nic. One question I have is about applying stain directly to spruce - my understanding has always been that spruce gets splotchy very easily because it absorbs stains unevenly. I know I've looked at some pretty ugly stained spruce tops - how does someone applying stain to spruce get around that pitfall?


Wade

[Island Mfg.]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Thanks, Nic. One question I have is about applying stain directly to spruce - my understanding has always been that spruce gets splotchy very easily because it absorbs stains unevenly. I know I've looked at some pretty ugly stained spruce tops - how does someone applying stain to spruce get around that pitfall?


Wade

Well... To be fair those old rubbed bursts ARE quite splotchy (that's part of their charm, too, no?)...

My friend, and awesome builder, Patrick Hodgins (http://patrickhodgins.com/) French Polished a sunburst:


No unevenness there, but he did use a spray gun... I forget his exact process.. it involved shooting the dye... and maybe shooting tinted shellac...

Maybe a washcoat of shellac before you start would help?

I'd say embrace the splotch.

[Howard Klepper]

Wade, your friend can find some instruction in Roger Siminoff's book on building a Florentine mandolin.

Spruce does tend to look messy when stained. A wash coat of shellac applied before staining can help; the process is often called "conditioning." There are some commercial products sold as conditioners, but I doubt that any work better than shellac. A lot of experimentation on spruce scrap is needed.

[Wade Hampton]

Thanks!

whm

[clinchriver]

Wade
I just finished up my #2 & 3 builds. #2 is my rendition of a 13 fret 1937 Nick Lucas special. I had high hopes of a nice hand applied Sunburst..... ended up with a mediocre "mud burst" Over on OLF Ed Minch (ruby50) has built three or four Nick Lucas specials with hand applied burst that are outstanding. give him a PM he has been very helpful.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

A lot of experimentation on spruce scrap is needed.

in my day i applied many a sunburst with a spray gun but never hand rubbed, so i can't help with any personal advice. but Howard's comment is the way i'd approach the situation. otherwise, its hit or miss (and we all know how that usually turns out).

[Alan Carruth]

I've done a few 'bursts by hand. I used a technique that painters sometimes use for things like clouds, that have to fade at the edges: rather than trying to paint on a fade, you wipe it off.

Start with a seal coat or two of clear finish. Make sure it's nice and level. You want to make sure you don't get color soaking into end grain or settling into open pores. Once you've got a level seal coat, apply a nice even layer of your color over the whole area. When it's had a chance to start to thicken up a bit, use a little solvent on a soft rag to wipe it off the area that you want to stay light (painters use cotton balls, but that might be problematic with some guitar finishes) . Wipe most of the area, leaving only a narrow edge. When the first color coat is dry you'll probably need to sand lightly, and do the next coat, wiping back a bit less. Remember that the first coat will have the greatest darkening effect, but that subsequent coats will add 'saturation'. Once you've got the color you want sand lightly, to level, and put on several clear coats so that you won't change the burst when you're polishing up.

Obviously this is something you need to practice. Lacquer will be a lot different from shellac or varnish, which are the two finishes I've used for this. Good luck.

[Haans]

I've done over 250 mandolins in bursts and at first did hand rubbed, but switched to an airbrush. I use NO seal coat, spray right on the raw wood. That gives you the clearest look. Seal coats "mask" the grain and make it look muddy. Howard is right, spruce tends to look pretty messy when you rub dye into it.
I use Trans-Tint, spray the yellow/amber on with the airbrush, and I use a water base. Then I spray the mix of brown, or red mix and usually add some black to darken the dye as I get closer to the final look. I end up carefully darkening the edges and blending. Use just enough black to make the brown/red darker. You want to spray so that it just is damp when the dye hits the instrument. For a mandolin, I usually spray from about 5-15" but I open the pattern and spray guitars from about 15-25".
This technique takes a lot of practice, so I would suggest you try it on a lot of scrap before shooting a guitar. You can only fix a poor job by sanding it off, and you will not be able to get it all out. Worth learning though...

[ChuckS]

That's beautiful Hans.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by Island Mfg.

Hi Wade.

I've done one hand rubbed burst. It was a cherry burst, and went to the forum founder JR.

Very cool, a modern day Stratotone!

[Alan Carruth]

Just to clarify: when I said use a 'seal coat' , I meant a coat or two of the same stuff as you're going to use for the final finish, but clear rather than tinted. This should eliminate the 'veiled' look you get when mixing different finish types with different indexes of refraction. Note that a 'seal coat' of a different material can work if one of two conditions is met: it's only filling the pores, and does not block the contact of the final finish with the wood, or it's a material that has the same index of refraction as the final finish.

The problem is that tinting colors, or colored varnish, particularly if it's thinned out as violin makers use it, will soak deeply into end grain. This ends up making dark spots that don't reflect the light. On curly wood you end up with stripes across the back, for example, that don't show the sort of 'chatoyance' that you get with a clear under coat.

Sometimes the desired look differs from one instrument to another: for example, the violin world dislikes sanded surfaces whereas guitar lovers don't want to see scraper marks. There's nothing inherently wrong with either one; it's just what people have come to expect. I've always preferred the more transparent look, and I can't get it when I put color directly onto bare wood.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Haans

Can a Burst ever get more beautiful than this example? I don't think so. What a gorgeous top.