Sipo vs Mahogany

[drive-south]

Originally Posted by DrewStrummer

From everything I’ve read about Sapo (not Mahogany) it’s a fine replacement... cabinet makers are having the same problem with Hondours Mahogany, and find Sapo is just as easy to cut, sand and stain, where as African Mahogany is hard and difficult to work with.

My thoughts are, just because a wood is easy to cut and stain, doesn’t necessarily make it tonely the same.

I also think it’s wrong for Martin to call Sapo - Mahogany... in 2013 they introduce the highly praised CEO 7, which was widely reviewed ... after 1000 guitars, they decide to use Sapo ( less expensive) instead of Mahogany.... I think the CEO7 line should’ve stopped being produce, or name changed to CEO7-S instead of still saying it’s made of Mahogany. After 1000, it’s not the same Guitar.

IMO... you can’t change over 50% of the wood on a Guitar, and because it stains and looks like Mahogany, don’t make it sound like Mahogany... if Sapo is so excellent... why not put it on your new John Mayer guitars?

Everybody knows over time how Real Mahogany opens up over time and sounds wonderful... nobody knows how Sapo will mature... I just just think it’s wrong to take a successful line, change the wood with no warning, a less expensive wood, a tonally unproven wood, charge the same price, then call the wood something it is not. Who knows, maybe 20 years from Sapo is like Brazilian and everybody’s over paying for it, or in 20 years it’s a clunk... who knows... but to slip it in on a popular pricey line, selling 2000 more without anybody knowing is BS.

What in tarnation is Sapo? Is that a hybrid of Sipo and Sapelle?

[DrewStrummer]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

I understand, to a point. However, carrying that a step further should all Style 18 and Style 28 guitars been renamed when Martin moved from red spruce to Sitka in 1945? Or should all Style 28 guitars have been renamed when Martin switched from BRW to IRW in 1969? I don't think so because the basic character of the guitar remained the same. Not that those changes don't affect the tone at all, but a 1969 D-28 is clearly in the same family as a 1970 example.

As far as Sipo goes, I cannot tell the difference (tonally) between it and mahogany. The difference in mahogany and sapele is more pronounced, but even that is not always clear cut. Sipo is the best tonal substitute for mahogany that I have heard, especially in terms of factory guitars.

Thanks Todd, that makes sense... I guess I look at the CEO series differently than I look at the standard line, where I agree the name should not change.

But the CEO7 is not a standard line, and one day will end. It was a home run...It’s been heavily reviewed and tons of videos... when people buy the CEO7 they expect the specs that gave this Guitar such praise.

Sipo may be the next great thing. But does anyone have a 10 year old - 4 year old Sipo, and can attest to the way it opens up? The only real reviews on Sipo is that it’s easy to cut, like mahogany, it’s easy to stain like mahogany... it’s cheaper than mahogany, it looks like mahogany... it’s not mahogany.... and there’s no history on tone.

Anyways, Just my 2 cents. Welcome sipo to the Guitar making world... just wish Martin would’ve ended the CEO 7 line at 1000... or make it more clear they changed a large mass of the guitars wood, to a completely different wood.... that’s not mahogany, but they still call it mahogany.

[DrewStrummer]

Originally Posted by drive-south

What in tarnation is Sapo? Is that a hybrid of Sipo and Sapelle?

LOL... just realized that... thanks.

Originally Posted by DrewStrummer

Sipo may be the next great thing. But does anyone have a 10 year old - 4 year old Sipo, and can attest to the way it opens up?

Not every piece of wood "opens up" the same way as another, regardless of what kind of wood it is.

Originally Posted by DrewStrummer

The only real reviews on Sipo is that it’s easy to cut, like mahogany, it’s easy to stain like mahogany... it’s cheaper than mahogany, it looks like mahogany... it’s not mahogany.... and there’s no history on tone.

As I posted earlier. Michael Dickinson, wood buyer for C.F. Martin, says, "I do think out of all the "cousins" of mahogany... Sipo has the most similar tonal qualities to genuine Mahogany." Having owned a CEO-7, I have to concur.

[Rosewood99]

What is Sipo? Did you mean Sapele?

Originally Posted by paulzoom

What is Sipo? Did you mean Sapele?

Entandrophragma utile. Sometimes called Sipo Mahogany, or simply Sipo, Utile is in the Meliaceae family, and is somewhat related to the true mahoganies found in the Swietenia genus.

[rlb9682]

Maybe it's just me, but my ears hear sapele as having a little darker tone than mahogany and maybe a touch more bass but they are very similar overall.

[DrewStrummer]

Originally Posted by Willie Voltaire

Not every piece of wood "opens up" the same way as another, regardless of what kind of wood it is.



As I posted earlier. Michael Dickinson, wood buyer for C.F. Martin, says, "I do think out of all the "cousins" of mahogany... Sipo has the most similar tonal qualities to genuine Mahogany." Having owned a CEO-7, I have to concur.

My beef is not with Sipo... I hope it is the next mahogany like wood and tonally equal.

My beef, is that Martin put it onto a highly acclaimed Honduras Mahogany CEO limited series Guitar without warning, and still till this day calls it Mahogany when it is not. Why not just promote it for what it is... a great replacement to Mahogany? And let the consumer decide.

And I also understand the sentiment, who cares if it sounds good that’s all that matters... but when buying a product from a high end manufacturer, you want to get what’s advertised, broadly reviewed and what you’re paying for.

[Rosewood99]

Originally Posted by Willie Voltaire

Entandrophragma utile. Sometimes called Sipo Mahogany, or simply Sipo, Utile is in the Meliaceae family, and is somewhat related to the true mahoganies found in the Swietenia genus.

You didn't answer the second half of my question. Is this the the technical name for sapele or is it a different species?

[DrewStrummer]

Originally Posted by paulzoom

You didn't answer the second half of my question. Is this the the technical name for sapele or is it a different species?

From what I’ve read both are African trees, but different species.

Both are mahogany like... but not.

[djg]

Originally Posted by paulzoom

You didn't answer the second half of my question. Is this the the technical name for sapele or is it a different species?

They are different species -- both from the same family (Meliacae) as each other -- which also includes "Honduras mahogany," although Sipo and Sapelle are more closely related to each other (same genus) than they are to S. macrophylla, which is often called "Honduras" or "big leaf" mahogany (different genus -- the S is for Swietenia).

I think this link has been posted in this thread, but I might be wrong (there have been a good many threads teasing out variations on the theme):

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-ar...s-the-lowdown/

What anybody makes of this WRT guitars is up to him or her. Based on a relatively small number of Sipo-bodied guitars, I cannot systematically identify a difference between swietenia and Sipo -- the sorts of differences I might notice comparing, say, 5 D-18s to each other could easily account for any differences I've heard between this or that CEO-7. YMMV.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by djg

They are different species -- both from the same family (Meliacae) as each other -- which also includes "Honduras mahogany," although Sipo and Sapelle are more closely related to each other (same genus) than they are to S. macrophylla, which is often called "Honduras" or "big leaf" mahogany (different genus -- the S is for Swietenia).

I think this link has been posted in this thread, but I might be wrong (there have been a good many threads teasing out variations on the theme):

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-ar...s-the-lowdown/

What anybody makes of this WRT guitars is up to him or her. Based on a relatively small number of Sipo-bodied guitars, I cannot systematically identify a difference between swietenia and Sipo -- the sorts of differences I might notice comparing, say, 5 D-18s to each other could easily account for any differences I've heard between this or that CEO-7. YMMV.

If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, does it really matter?

[djg]

Originally Posted by stringjunky2

If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, does it really matter?

To some people, and for some purposes. For the purposes of selecting a guitar -- not to me.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by paulzoom

You didn't answer the second half of my question. Is this the the technical name for sapele or is it a different species?

Review this chart:

http://www.wood-database.com/wp-cont...y-families.pdf

[jrb715]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

I understand, to a point. However, carrying that a step further should all Style 18 and Style 28 guitars been renamed when Martin moved from red spruce to Sitka in 1945? Or should all Style 28 guitars have been renamed when Martin switched from BRW to IRW in 1969? I don't think so because the basic character of the guitar remained the same. Not that those changes don't affect the tone at all, but a 1969 D-28 is clearly in the same family as a 1970 example.

I do think the style 18 and 28 should have been renamed or at least designated with an additional letter. When the nature of the wood is as important, rightly or wrongly, to buyers, I believe precise description, or at least a clear announcement, is necessary. (I suppose this seems extreme only because we've come to live with the changes--not necessarily happily, by the way.) The basic size and, at least initially, the basic bracing remained the same, but I think changing the tops and tone woods did change the character of the guitars. As for bracing, Martin has discovered that changing the bracing is an advertising opportunity. To not mention a change in tone wood seems deliberately deceptive to me.