What Is It About The B String?

[GHS]

I too have a problem with the b string ( pinging) on my D-28 at times. Could be weather related? Seems more of a problem in the winter in colder/dryer temps.

[John Arnold]

So why does it sound worse than the high E, which is also plain steel? My guess is because it's adjacent to a wound string.

Well, not exactly. The problem of the B string comes about because of its bending stiffness compared to the tension and length. It is the main reason that all the strings are not plain steel.
It order to have good harmonic vibration, the string must be relatively flexible at the end points (the saddle and nut). If it is too stiff, then the vibration produces inharmonic overtones that are not pleasant to the ear.
Added to that is the tendency to go sharp when the string is depressed to fret it...because of the same bending stiffness. The bending angle is most noticeable near the nut, and is accentuated if the nut is too high.
The solutions are fourfold:
1) use a wound B string.
2) increase the tension.
3) increase the scale length.
4) reduce the string diameter (gauge).

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Well, not exactly. The problem of the B string comes about because of its bending stiffness compared to the tension and length. It is the main reason that all the strings are not plain steel.
It order to have good harmonic vibration, the string must be relatively flexible at the end points (the saddle and nut). If it is too stiff, then the vibration produces inharmonic overtones that are not pleasant to the ear.
Added to that is the tendency to go sharp when the string is depressed to fret it...because of the same bending stiffness. The bending angle is most noticeable near the nut, and is accentuated if the nut is too high.
The solutions are fourfold:
1) use a wound B string.
2) increase the tension.
3) increase the scale length.
4) reduce the string diameter (gauge).

3 & 4 don't seem to add up. Increasing the scale length (3) increases string tension, whereas reducing string diameter (4) decreases string tension? They achieve opposite effects re tension.

In any case, if you're saying that the fix is to have good flexibility of the string at the nut and the saddle, how can increasing string tension achieve that, as surely, flexibility is reduced by a stiffer, tauter string? There appears to be contradictory statements throughout.

[GibbyPrague]

Delete. Answered wrong thread.

[wrench68]

Originally Posted by GHS

I too have a problem with the b string ( pinging) on my D-28 at times. Could be weather related? Seems more of a problem in the winter in colder/dryer temps.

I think that's possible. Low temperature and humidity won't affect the strings much, but drier wood has stronger overtones. I never tested this (yet), but it seems plausible.

[roadbiker]

Originally Posted by Andromeda

Somebody should do a scientific study on why the B string acts the way it does.

Apply for a US Federal Grant... you'll probably get a few million dollars for the study...

Jim

[nik_c]

Ahh - this thread is interesting! Amazing ho many people have an 'issue' with this B string ...

Same here, but up to now I thought it might have been my guitar (Yamaha FG420-12), the two B's never quite gell as well and stay in tune as long ...

Another aspect: this issue is easier to deal with on a fretless isntrument? Like a double bass, violin, etc, fretless bass, ...

Is there such a thing like a fretless guitar? how does that feel to play - that must sound a lot sweeter than a fretted one?

By the way - I watch the you tube video with the 'bent'frets and maybe it is jsut me, my laptops speakers, or the sound of the guitar, but the chrods sounded sweeter/smoother to me on the guitar with the adjusted frets.

Is that the how the adjusted 'micro-'tuning would sound like then?

[michaelhager]

Originally Posted by Andromeda

Somebody should do a scientific study on why the B string acts the way it does.

Not sure how scientific it is, but there obviously are some quirky issues with the B string that all major manufacturers know about. Why do you think there is a different position on the bridge for it?

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by michaelhager

Not sure how scientific it is, but there obviously are some quirky issues with the B string that all major manufacturers know about. Why do you think there is a different position on the bridge for it?

It needs a "different position" on the bridge just as ALL the strings do. It just happens to be at the junction of wound and unwound strings and, being thicker, it needs more compensation (length) that the first string, though not as much as the wound G, hence the step change at that point. If you look at a Takamine compensated bridge it is actually two pieces, illustrating the point I make. But yeah, the 'generic compensated acoustic guitar bridge' does seem to make a special case of the B - it's a red herring in the looks stakes in that respect. As I say, all strings are 'special case' when it comes to intonation corrections. A simple slanting bridge is a crude(ish) compromise - but one that tends to work well enough on an acoustic guitar where players generally do not play past the 12th fret.

[GHS]

I have just finished installing a new bone saddle in my D-28. Close inspection of the saddle found small grooves in the e and b string. I bought this guitar used, it was built in 1995 and has some miles on it. After changing it out, no more ping! I am waiting though, it is warmer and the rh is up to about 37% at this time. I had ordered the saddle from Bob Colosi to install in my 000-15 but really saw no need so I had it on hand. Exact replacement on the 28 except for the usual sanding of the height and ends.

[roeg]

another point to bring up here,more related to tuning the b string is that on the guitar,from the bottom E to the G,the strings are in perfect 4th's,very strong fundamental.But then the interval from the G string to the B string is an augmented 4th...not a strong fundamental. With respect to the top 2 strings,B and E the interval reverts back to a pefect fourth.I've always instinctively felt this contibutes to the challeges of getting the top 3 strings in nice balance.Equal temperement.I've used a peterson tuner on my electrics for over 10 years and the "sweetened" equal temperement feature of this tuner is outstanding.I don't use it for my acoustics because i don't need it,i achieve equal temeperment by ear over several chords and intervals,as many people here do.jmho.

[wrench68]

Originally Posted by GHS

I have just finished installing a new bone saddle in my D-28. Close inspection of the saddle found small grooves in the e and b string. I bought this guitar used, it was built in 1995 and has some miles on it. After changing it out, no more ping! I am waiting though, it is warmer and the rh is up to about 37% at this time. I had ordered the saddle from Bob Colosi to install in my 000-15 but really saw no need so I had it on hand. Exact replacement on the 28 except for the usual sanding of the height and ends.

That info is useful to me. Thanks for passing it along.

[dangrunloh]

I want to add one more thing about the B string for those who have problems with over-picking or striking the B string too had making a rattle or ping too much. I found it helped me a lot to file down and lower the height of the saddle (on the top) at the position of the B-string only.

You don't want to lower it so much as to cause string buzz. Lay a straightedge on the strings near the saddle. They should be in a gentle arc but sometimes if the bridge or saddle leans toward the nut it will cause the B-string to be extra high because of the ramp to it's compensated point.

If you think about it, anytime the string line isn't exactly 90 degrees to the saddle (on a generic drop-in compensated saddle) that arc of targets for your pick is no longer correct. A handmade saddle fitted by a luthier would probably be adjusted for that.

I lowered the B until it was almost a straight line from G to E and the evil B string gives me less trouble with my style of playing. Yours might be different. Actually I lowered it a little too much the first time and found I was hitting the E too hard. I filed down the E a bit to compensate which was fine as my action was a little high anyway.

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by dangrunloh

I want to add one more thing about the B string for those who have problems with over-picking or striking the B string too had making a rattle or ping too much. I found it helped me a lot to file down and lower the height of the saddle (on the top) at the position of the B-string only.

You don't want to lower it so much as to cause string buzz. Lay a straightedge on the strings near the saddle. They should be in a gentle arc but sometimes if the bridge or saddle leans toward the nut it will cause the B-string to be extra high because of the ramp to it's compensated point.

If you think about it, anytime the string line isn't exactly 90 degrees to the saddle (on a generic drop-in compensated saddle) that arc of targets for your pick is no longer correct. A handmade saddle fitted by a luthier would probably be adjusted for that.

I lowered the B until it was almost a straight line from G to E and the evil B string gives me less trouble with my style of playing. Yours might be different. Actually I lowered it a little too much the first time and found I was hitting the E too hard. I filed down the E a bit to compensate which was fine as my action was a little high anyway.

Hmm, seems a dangerous thing to do; lower an individual string cos you're hitting it too hard. Not for me.

[John Arnold]

In any case, if you're saying that the fix is to have good flexibility of the string at the nut and the saddle, how can increasing string tension achieve that, as surely, flexibility is reduced by a stiffer, tauter string? There appears to be contradictory statements throughout.

Not if you understand my explanation. It is not the bending stiffness per se, it is the bending stiffness compared to the tension. Raise the tension, and the bending stiffness becomes a smaller factor, percentagewise.
You can prove this by loosening the strings. At some point, all the strings will behave as badly as a B string, because the bending stiffness starts to figure in.

flexibility is reduced by a stiffer, tauter string?

Just to clarify, the bending stiffness I am describing is only a function of the string diameter and the material. String tension is another variable, though the two are related by frequency.
When I said "raise the tension", it was a bit frivolous, since that will raise the pitch, unless you also increase the gauge. But raising the tension does work. You can prove it by tightening the B string. At some point prior to breaking (usually about 3 or 4 semitones high), it will behave much better. You will have better sound and truer intonation.

Why does reducing the diameter work?
The bending stiffness is proportional to the fourth power of the diameter of a solid wire string. The mass of a solid string is proportional to the square of the diameter. This means that reducing the diameter reduces bending stiffness more than mass. For a given frequency, mass and tension are inversely proportional, meaning a linear relationship.
Example:
Reducing the diameter from 0.017" to 0.016"
Mass and tension are reduced by about 11%.
Bending stiffness is reduced by about 20%.

The problem with rattle is because in most string sets, the B string has the least tension. String tension is a compromise, particularly because of the problems with bending stiffness I have outlined above. If you increased the gauge of the B string to equalize the tension, the problems with inharmonic vibration and bad intonation would become even worse.