Back after a break with an observation

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by cmd612

Are you suggesting that "the reality of most societies" doesn't include social contrivances?

No. However, the right to one's own opinion - and freedom to express that opinion without fear of reprisal or censorship is a cornerstone principle that largely defines the concept of most human societies.

The lack of that fundamental principle here on AGF (or most any forum) makes this place highly divergent from the "reality" that most of us live in.

I enjoy and benefit from the giant knowledge base here (thanks everyone!!), and derive amusement from the perspectives that aren't censored by the moderators - but I certainly don't wish the real world were more like it.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

No. However, the right to one's own opinion - and freedom to express that opinion without fear of reprisal or censorship is a cornerstone principle that largely defines the concept of most human societies.

True however a forum is not a physical society or even a virtual society , it's more like a virtual private residence or private business . And some types of increased censorship is often the "reality" of private residence/business in any physical society .

The lack of that fundamental principle here on AGF (or most any forum) makes this place highly divergent from the "reality" that most of us live in.

Perhaps not as much as one might think, go into a bank and loudly voice an opinion on the evils of the banking system or your opinion on the most effective way to rob a bank. I'm guessing there would be attempts at censorship and or the reprisal of at least removal .

I enjoy and benefit from the giant knowledge base here (thanks everyone!!), and derive amusement from the perspectives that aren't censored by the moderators - but I certainly don't wish the real world were more like it.

OK but I do think the real world could definitely benefit from a bit more civility

[Silurian]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Let me if I may use your post to suggest the possible difference of experience between this and other forums .

The AGF experience: Reply to your post
No doubt we all agree that an internet forum is not the "real" world and people can behave differently. So in that sense any and all internet forums are in effect not real. Or at least not a physical reality.

But I question, and am not sure I agree that more regulation necessarily equals "less real"

Consider this for example. I am guessing that life under a strict totalitarian regime and its vastly increased social regulation is every bit as "real" as life under a much less regulated government.

Now for the "other" forum experience : ( and this for comparative analysis only and absolutely does reflect what I think of your post , which reflects a reasonable opinion but I think there other possible reasonable opinions to consider also, as per above )


Forum X experience : Reply

"What a stupid numskull notion , you don't have the brains of a jackass"



Now I question does the second one actually seem to be the more real ? Or is it merely the more disrespectful ?

IMO. it is actually the more contrived, because it is less objective, and thus less real

Sticking with your example:

Under a totalitarian regime being open and honest with colleagues, friends and even family, about relatively innocuous matters could result in a visit from the secret police.
I would say such a potential effect on one's personal relationships could very well make life 'less real'.


I've had a different forum x experience. One in which regulation is minimal, but still results in a high level of debate, friendliness and good humour.. If a regular member steps out of bounds they invariably apologise. Self regulation seems to work there.

[cmd612]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

No. However, the right to one's own opinion - and freedom to express that opinion without fear of reprisal or censorship is a cornerstone principle that largely defines the concept of most human societies.

I don't believe that's true. I live in one of the most free and open societies that's ever existed, and still there are plenty of reprisals I could suffer for saying or doing certain things, from the bank example KevWind cited, to losing my job or getting arrested, depending on what I chose to say, when, how, and to whom.

And there are many, many places around the world, perhaps most places, where the freedoms we are used to here don't exist. In some of them people are regularly jailed or killed merely for expressing themselves in ways deemed inappropriate by those in power. Even many developed, industrialized democracies have much stricter laws regulating speech than the U.S. has.

So, no, I don't believe for a moment that being able to freely say whatever one thinks is a principle of "most human societies."

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

No. However, the right to one's own opinion - and freedom to express that opinion without fear of reprisal or censorship is a cornerstone principle that largely defines the concept of most human societies.

The lack of that fundamental principle here on AGF (or most any forum) makes this place highly divergent from the "reality" that most of us live in.

I enjoy and benefit from the giant knowledge base here (thanks everyone!!), and derive amusement from the perspectives that aren't censored by the moderators - but I certainly don't wish the real world were more like it.

I think the way to view any forum is as if it were someone’s home and you were an invited guest.

This pretense of a reality in a virtual world has the power to help us self moderate , while the anonymity of the internet forces a decision upon the owner of the space about who is allowed in the front door.

While this is certainly a social contrivance , could it also
Be true of any gathering of people for any purpose ? Real or virtual?

[Acousticado]

Overt verbal arguing, bickering or fighting at face-to-face social gatherings is quite rare. Folks tend to be quite civil and respectful in such settings, even when speaking about topics disallowed here. That is reality.

In virtual forum environments, without an upfront tone set by the owner/mods, some members allow themselves to extend beyond their otherwise civil demeanor and take advantage of their anonymity. I don’t see that as reality, it’s just weakness.

This is a guitar forum where the owner provides space for members to discuss unrelated topics in a civil manner. We’re lucky to have that. Civility has proven to be impossible with certain subjects, so the absense of them better facilitiates the civil reality of face-to-face social gatherings.

IMO, this place is quite real...many members have connected in ‘physical’ life beyond posts, PMs and email, to phone, in-person encounters, and sometimes gatherings with many other members.

[rokdog49]

All I know is that the AGF is the only forum I have ever been on where people
treat each other with respect and generally express themselves about music and guitars with a high degree of civility even when it's obvious there are strong underlying differences in personal beliefs etc.
To argue about whether this place is some sort of contrived reality vs. the "real world"
seems kind of irrelevant to me, but go ahead and have at it if you like. It certainly is revealing.

[polarred21]

Originally Posted by Slothead56

I bought a boat in July and, while I'm still playing guitar, I've turned my interest to boating forums recently. In fact, it's been about 4 months since I visited the AGF.

I am amazed at the lack of civility and social demeanor in the primary boat forum I frequent. Heaven help anyone with a different opinion. All manner of insults, name calling, smashing and bashing. I'm not a prude, but it is the worst!

Makes me appreciate the gentility of the AGF. Kudos to the Mods and members for keeping it real....

Let me guess, spending time on THT?

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Silurian

Sticking with your example:

Under a totalitarian regime being open and honest with colleagues, friends and even family, about relatively innocuous matters could result in a visit from the secret police.
I would say such a potential effect on one's personal relationships could very well make life 'less real'.

Interesting while I can see that such a situation might feel more nightmarish I would think knowing it wasn't a dream would make it all the more starkly "real" ?? I guess we will have agree on having different perspectives . I will say I am glad that I am only speculating, and do not know first hand how that might seem --

I've had a different forum x experience. One in which regulation is minimal, but still results in a high level of debate, friendliness and good humour.. If a regular member steps out of bounds they invariably apologise. Self regulation seems to work there.

That's honestly good that forum exists. I really only visit one other forum and although it does not allow political or religious discussion, it does not have the "be nice rule" and I don't see the level of self control your forum X experience alludes to. And the reply I posted does paraphrase some of the tone of replies while not the majority it does occur with infrequent regularity and when it does, invariably the debate degrades into low level inane continual tit for tat .

[Rondoraymundo]

When it comes to people and ideas, the AGF functions as a regression toward the mean. Some of this effect is intentional, while some of it is not. I don't mean to single this forum out, I'm sure there are other internet forums that act de facto in this way. But this whirlpool toward mediocrity eventually bores or irritates those with data points on the extreme and they move on. They decide that there is, after all, only so much time in one's life.

Of course the folks I'm talking about are interesting people with interesting ideas. The very fact that as of this date there is an active first page thread with over 100 posts and nearly 10,000 views called "What members do you miss" is ample proof of the whirlpool.

Or, to quote Neil Young when speaking of his greatest commercial success, (Harvest), "put me in the middle of the road. Traveling there soon became a bore so I headed for the ditch. A rougher ride but I saw more interesting people there."

[Mr. Jelly]

Obviously this is real. Also obvious is that it is an entity of it's own design and rules. Ones conjecture does inter into our interaction.

[Gmountain]

I love civility and be nice rules. I don't think that be nice means don't challenge ideas, though. It doesn't mean don't disagree. I think it means no insults or personal attacks. But ideas and positions- those should be fair game. If a person raises an idea or states a position, then maybe it will be challenged. I don't see it as uncivil.

Sometimes forums go too far in my opinion. I think it has to do with the average age of the regular visitors. I've been banned from a vegetarian site because I suggested that people becoming physically ill when they see meat being served in restaurants or other people eating meat is something they will have to deal with in the real world.