About chord progressions

[Dual Trace]

I hope this is a good place to ask this question.

As far as I know, the chords you can use when playing in whatever key are derived from the notes of that key: the 1st, the 4th, and the 5th which also has to be a 7 chord. For example, in the key of C, you can use C, F and G7.

How rigid is this? And are there any rules that can tell you what other chords can be included with those three? And does a song in C major need to always start with a C major chord?

Another question is whether you can mix major with minor chords. For example I play (arpeggio or strumming, doesn’t matter) F#minor and then E major. They sound so well together.

Or this one: F#minor, then Bminor and then E major. To me the sequence sounds great.

Is it just my impression? Is there any simple theory behind this?

Thanks,
Dual Trace

[JerrysGuitarBar]

Hi Dual,

This is a huge question that goes deep into music theory. Let's start with a quick intro.

You're right about the I, IV and IV chords. But yes, there are other chords in a key, both major and minor. They're built from the notes of the major scale of that key. In C, the notes are C D E F G A and B

If we build chords on those notes (I can explain how if you're interested - other guys here will probably do so) we get these chords - the chords that 'belong' in the key of C:

C, Dm, Em, F, G(7), Am, Bdim.

That touches the surface of what you asked

And your question about F#m, Bm and E, well they belong to the key of A - or more specifically it's relative minor key F#m. A relative minor key is the minor key that shares the same chords as the major key. So your progression is in the key of F#m. In C the relative minor is A minor and the same progression would be Am Dm G.

Jerry

[Dual Trace]

Thank you and please feel free to go deeper into this, I won’t choke. I went through 3 years of classical guitar with a teacher, but I was always very reluctant to learn theory, to learn the chords of various keys, etc. My main concern was simply to play the piece that was on the music sheet.

Now I got the electric bug, got myself an electric and a multi effect pedal and feel like I have some ideas I could improvise on and hit a wall with these progressions.

Thanks,
Dual Trace

[JerrysGuitarBar]

Well it would be a whole course to cover everything, but the next thing is to understand that the order of the chord types in each key is always the same. Starting from the root note (C in the key of C), the chords in a major key will always be:
I - major
ii - minor
iii - minor
IV - major
V - major
vi - minor
vii - diminished

So now you need to know what the naotes are in the major scale of each key. There will be 7 before you get back to the home note again - one for each of the chords above.

Take the key of C. The notes in the C major scale are: C D E F G A B

How we know this can be another post

Every triad (the simplest type of chord) consists of its 'name note' (C for the chord of C for example) and the note a third above it and the one a third above that.

Let's build the chord of C:
First will be the 'name note' - C
Counting from C, the next note will be a 3rd higher - E (count C as '1', D as '2' and E as '3')
Now go a 3rd higher from E and you get G.

So the notes of the chord of C major are C E and G
If we do the same thing from the note D we get D F and A
If you play those three notes together on your guitar you're playing the chord of Dm - the second chord in the key of C.

Do the rest of the chords in the key of C and see if you can get which 3 notes make up each chord (triad).

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Dual Trace

...How rigid is this? And are there any rules that can tell you what other chords can be included with those three? And does a song in C major need to always start with a C major chord?

Hi DT...

Not rigid, but it is very common.

Of course we mix major and minor chords, and diminished and augmented ones too...and both major and minor sevenths etc.

If you take a closer look at scale/chord theory there are many guidelines which help us determine what chords flow out of other chords, or move easily from certain chords to/from others.

Do you play keyboards?

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi DT...

Not rigid, but it is very common.

Of course we mix major and minor chords, and diminished and augmented ones too...and both major and minor sevenths etc.

If you take a closer look at scale/chord theory there are many guidelines which help us determine what chords flow out of other chords, or move easily from certain chords to/from others.

I see major and minor everywhere, but in most pop music, I rarely ever see diminished or augmented chords.

So where JerrysGuitarBar writes:

If we build chords on those notes (I can explain how if you're interested - other guys here will probably do so) we get these chords - the chords that 'belong' in the key of C:

C, Dm, Em, F, G(7), Am, Bdim.

Now, going from what JerrysGuitarBar wrote to what ljguitar wrote before that: "Of course we mix major and minor chords, and diminished and augmented ones too ..."

When it comes to chord progressions, where do the diminished and augmented fit in? I know the most simple chord progressions are the I, IV, V (C, F, G7) and the I, vi, IV, V (C, Am, F, G7) and I won't list the other "simple" ones, but what are common or popular chord progressions that use the diminished and/or augmented chord? (Could anyone provide some examples of such chord progressions, using Roman Numerals along with the actual chords they represent, and do so in the Key Of C, since that is the key JerrysGuitarBar is using in his answering the opening question of this thread?)


thanks

[saxonblue]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

I see major and minor everywhere, but in most pop music, I rarely ever see diminished or augmented chords.

You'd probably be surprised how often they pop up, although usually only for a brief moment. Listen to the start of The Beatles "Oh Darling". They serve as a transition* in an almost similar way to a suspended chord but instead of sharpening the 3rd to a 4th or flattening the minor 3rd to a 2nd you're playing with the 5th instead (albeit with a totally different effect to a sus. chord).

It also follows on from there that it's a pretty easy modification to make (often just moving one finger up/down or holding the 5th & moving the rest of the chord up/down) to add a bit of colour to a progression without any need to know a great deal about the theory. I probably have a simplistic & not 100% accurate take on it but that's the gist of it to me.

*P.S. probably a better term than transitionary (which the chord may or may not be) would be unresolved which the chord always is, it needs to go somewhere.

[Dual Trace]

Wow, it seems you just needed a spark to start a debate on the subject. Thanks for all the inputs.
If you bring more examples, it’s good to use the C major or A minor keys as they only use naturals and are (at least for me) easier to follow.

Now I’m set to hit the Guitar Center and get a book on these things. Is there one you would recommend? I’m not looking for a guitar method per se, but rather for some easy to digest material about this topic.

And no, I don't play keyboards.

Thanks a lot,
Dual Trace

[stanron]

While the last two posters were writing I was writing this,

Diminished and augmented chords mostly live in jazz and the popular music based on the Great American Song Book. Up to half way through the 20th century jazz was considered to be popular music. Then it changed direction and the number of people who consider jazz to be popular music today is diminished.

The chords based on the notes of the major scale;

C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am and B dim (you can sustitute G7 for B dim. They mostly have the same notes)

were pretty much standard in pop up to the 60s. After that groups like the Beatles (who incidentally had a very wide range of influences which included Rock n Roll, Jazz, Folk and Easy Listening) started using modal scales as well as the major and minor scales. In some of those scales the 7th note was a full tone below the root giving, for example, a chord of B flat in the Key of C.

The natural minor key of A minor has the same chords as C major, only starting and ending on A minor.
The harmonic minor key sharpens the 7th note. In A minor that note is G and it becomes G#, so the Em chord becomes E major.

If this seems to be getting complicated that is because this stuff tends to get presented as rules. These days you don't have to obey rules if you don't want to. Follow the sounds that sound good to you, examine what is happening there and try to do something like it yourself. Theory says that chords have three notes but lots of guitar chords have more than three notes. Metal players use a lot of two note chords or Dyads. Concentrate on sounds you like and ignore sounds you don't. Good luck.

[clintj]

The one I have in my library of books is "Music Theory for Guitar". It covers all this plus some, and is a good starting point. There are concepts that are not covered in depth like borrowing from parallel modes (listen to some Jethro Tull, there's a lot of that going on in their music). The reference to the Beatles is spot on too, I have a big book with the lyrics and chords to almost all of their songs, and their earlier songs use the augmented and diminished chords as transitions, often at the end of verses.

[XYRN]

I'm a certified newb when it comes to theory, but here's an Excel spreadsheet I made that kind of combines stuff I've learned from two really good books and from answers to many questions I've asked here.
This table may be helpful for you. (I refer to it often when I'm noodling around.)

Link

Regarding progressions, I-IV-V-(I) is very common, but different genres use different progressions. There's no real wrong way to do it if the result is pleasing or invokes the feeling the player intends.
Jazz, for example, makes a lot of use of the ii-V-I progression.

[islandguitar]

Very good thread! Thanks.

Might want to look at The Skeptical Guitar Player, by Bruce Emery. Several books in this series.

[Dual Trace]

Well, for me this sure was helpful. I got motivated and after a bit more digging I rediscovered things I once went through, but at the time decided I can ignore.

I built the scale I was interested in: F# minor. I don’t know why, but first I started with finding its major cousin, A# major. I built A# major and when I saw it comes with four sharps and three double sharps, I said, this is silly, why don’t I build F# minor directly?
So since a minor key has the semitones (half steps) between positions 2-3 and 5-6, then the notes need to be: F#, G#, A, B, C#, D, E, F#

Actually up to this point it was basic stuff, but from here, knowing (learned this today) that the chord sequence for a minor key is:
1min - 2dim - 3maj - 4min - 5min - 6maj - 7maj,
I can see now the chord progression that sounded appealing to me as being positions 1-4-7 that is F#minor – B minor – E major.

Now the real hard question is how to improvise on it? I recorded my chord progression on the looper and then guessed my way along. Sometimes it sounds good, sometimes it does not. What’s easy and works is simply arpegiating while the looper plays the strumming, but hope to do some real solo.
I’m sure some will say there are no rules, but there must be at least some guidelines.

Thank you,
Dual Trace

[Bern]

Originally Posted by saxonblue

*P.S. probably a better term than transitionary (which the chord may or may not be) would be unresolved which the chord always is, it needs to go somewhere.

New subject...voice leading.

[Blue Willy]

Great thread!

I'm not a schooled musician, I'm an ear guy not a notation guy which doesn't necessarily mean I know nothing. I learned blues from Brownie McGhee who explained how to lead musicians in a jam with the chords one plays. In a blues one can telegraph changes to the other musicians thusly...say you're playing the I chord lets say in E and you want to lead into the IV chord you play the E7 which leads your ear to the A (in blues often an A7 or A9), when you want to return to the E you sharp the root note (A#) producing a diminished chord which leads your ear back to the E. The passing chords you play should lead your ear naturally to the next chord.

There are also many different ways to play a 12-bar blues besides the usual I, IV & V. There is the I, IV, I, VI, II, V, I for instance. I made this vid of Ma Rainey's SEE SEE RIDER as an illustration for the benefit of my students.