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Old 03-31-2015, 02:31 PM
funkapus funkapus is offline
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Default Ergonomics, pain, fatigue, etc.

When I first started learning to play guitar, it was in the context of a group class (at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago) which was very good from the standpoint of keeping you excited about playing and getting you to the point of being able to strum I-IV-V in a few keys quickly and so forth; but the level of personal attention wasn't high, and so there wasn't much attention paid to ergonomics/arm and wrist positions/posture/etc. I've since played off and on for years, but only in the last couple of years have I been making more of a serious effort to get better; and during the intervening time, I've probably been doing everything wrong, or at least in an unhealthy way.

Anyway, after years of playing, I've realized I really have to address these topics because mild pain and fatigue is holding me back from getting any better. My lower back and my left arm both get aches -- nothing that really seems serious, no shooting or stabbing pains or anything like that (I've had carpal tunnel/ulnar nerve entrapment and it doesn't feel like that) -- but still enough to be annoying and distracting as hell. And my left forearm gets tired really quickly. But I'm not sure what "addressing these topics" means. Over the years I've had a few instructors, but ergonomics seems to be a topic they were uncomfortable with and they didn't really have much to say other than "try this positioning and see if it helps" (which it usually does briefly, but only a little and not for long). I've watched videos on YouTube but the suggestions I see there don't seem to change much of anything, leaving me depressed and wondering if optimal ergonomics is highly personalized and nobody can help.

The only thing I've picked up in all of this that has helped at all for more than a few minutes has been to play with a strap, whether standing or sitting: this has allowed me to keep the neck angle stable at 45 degrees or so, which seems more comfortable to me than either near horizontal or classical/vertical. But while that's helped a bit, it hasn't helped enough. There's still too much pain and fatigue that other players don't seem to have.

Does anyone have any advice for me at all? I feel like I haven't really formed a good question here, but I don't really know what to ask. I just know that right now things are not good and I have to do something about it, but I don't know what that means. Right now I go to jams and after we've played a couple of tunes, I have no choice but to alternate playing a tune with sitting a tune or two out because my left shoulder hurts or my arm is tired or whatever. Which is such a drag. And my practicing doesn't have much structure because it can't, because after five minutes I have to get up and do something else for a while.


Thanks.
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Old 03-31-2015, 04:06 PM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Your age and general aches and pains in doing other things? Sometimes you need to start with a general health check up and possible medication and/or physical therapy.
Seems like from your comments you have explored various ways of positioning the guitar. I don't know what guitar you play, but personally I am less physically comfortable playing dreads, jumbos, and the like. Guitar body depth can make a difference and is worth exploring.
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Old 03-31-2015, 05:39 PM
funkapus funkapus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Your age and general aches and pains in doing other things? Sometimes you need to start with a general health check up and possible medication and/or physical therapy.
Seems like from your comments you have explored various ways of positioning the guitar. I don't know what guitar you play, but personally I am less physically comfortable playing dreads, jumbos, and the like. Guitar body depth can make a difference and is worth exploring.
Hi, and thanks for your reply. Age 50, not bad re: aches and pains otherwise. Some minor issues with chronic back pain but not in a way that seems obviously connected. But maybe you're right, and a doc is where I should start.

I generally play OMs/OOO-size guitars -- I moved away from dreads a long time ago.
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Old 04-02-2015, 12:22 PM
angel13 angel13 is offline
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Playing guitar puts our body into a very unnatural position which overtime csn cause stress to our mechanical structure. Here are some things thzt have helped me:
1. Watch some YouTube vids on guitar positioning and hand positioning.
2. Don't sit playing more than 20 mi utes at a time, then get up for 5 minutes and stretch, then sit a d play again.
3. Consider exercises for strethening hands, arms and shoulders. I use light dumbells and resistence bands.
4. Make sure you're not adding to your bodies strain. I found that using a strap csused me muscle strain overtime. So I now use a guitar support like Dynarette or there's a recent thread on a Barnett support. This puts my guitar at the correct height and angle.
5. Go see a chiropractor or physiotherapist to unkink you - you may have a muscle inbalance or trapped nerve aggravating the discomfort you feel.
6. Don't ignore it, pain is your bodies way of telling you there is something wrong.

Hope some of these suggestions help.
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Last edited by angel13; 04-03-2015 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 04-03-2015, 05:24 AM
Fruitloop Fruitloop is offline
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Make sure you're not tensing up unconsciously while playing. The natural reaction for the body when performing a demanding task is to tense the muscles, readying us to run away from that sable tooth tiger. Very little pressure is required to play the guitar, it is a whole skill in itself to learn that.
There are lots of good videos on youtube, maybe look into that?

When I find I'm too tense I go back a step and take things very slowly, allowing me to focus on keeping the movement relaxed and economical. Sometimes I do chord changes (for difficult ones) without playing the chords. I just calmly move my fretting hand into position back and forth.
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Old 04-03-2015, 10:27 AM
jwing jwing is offline
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Any advice given here is just shooting in the dark, since we don't have a visual of you playing. I'll share what worked for me:

1) Posture. Try play while standing. Stand straight and tall; don't hunch over; don't twist. Transfer that posture to sitting.

2) Strap. Get a wide strap. If you have been attaching the strap with a heel button, try tying it to the headstock instead. Distributes the weight across your back instead of down through your lower neck and upper shoulder. The strap should be the same length sitting or standing. For me, playing with a strap while sitting lifts the guitar up off my thigh. OTH, playing with the guitar on my thigh forces me to slouch, a sure and well-beaten path to back and shoulder pain.

3) Tension. Re-read Fruitloop's #5. I still battle with tension creeping into my fret-hand side shoulder. I've had to pay lots of attention to the angle of the guitar neck, both up/down and forward/back. The angle affects both left shoulder and right shoulder.

4) The guitar neck profile. A thin profile, like Taylor builds, is murder on my fretting hand. A thicker neck, like the Martin Modified V, allows my hand to stay more open and relaxed, which relieves tension and allows more easier motion of my fingers.
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Old 04-03-2015, 11:05 AM
perttime perttime is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Your age and general aches and pains in doing other things? ...
Along the same line of thinking...

... do you regularly engage in physical activities like sports, walking in the park, gardening, etc?.
I think a moderate level of fitness is good even for playing the guitar, but playing is unlikely to develop many of your muscles much. Especially the back is one area where lack of exercise can cause problems.
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Old 04-06-2015, 12:59 PM
Zhoffritz Zhoffritz is offline
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Hi, Funkapus. I'm in a similar situation to you, playing despite body aches. Plus, I'm taking classes at Old Town right now myself, so I'm also aware that the classes are not about individual attention for perfect form. But I've gotten the impression that outside of classical guitar classes, that's rare from any teacher.

I went into guitar knowing that my body is a bit worn-out. I may never be able to play as long per day as some people, but I'm already exceeding my low expectations. So far when I've run up against a problem I've googled it--and that's how I found this forum, googling hand issues for guitarists.

What I told myself I'd do if hit a problem I can't fix is call around to a bunch of physical therapy places and ask them all if they have someone who plays guitar or otherwise specializes in guitar. And probably ask a couple of follow-up questions to try to verify they aren't bs-ing me. Or post on craigslist or yelp (or here) to see if someone could recommend a P.T. for this.

I had shoulder issues when I started due to the guitar being so big I had to lift my shoulders up to play. It was a 00 guitar. I have a gs mini now and my shoulder pain is gone. I wonder if your 45 degree neck angle causes you to lift that shoulder (which would definitely cause me shoulder pain) in which case trying a slightly lower angle could help, or looking into a guitar with a shorter neck. Or if you are pushing the neck forward such that the guitar is not flat across the body but the whole thing angles out, (which I believe some people choose to do as their hand likes that angle) doing that for very long would cause me a different pain, right on the outside edge of my shoulder right below the bone.

The fact that your arm simply gets too tired to keep playing after a few songs concerns me. Are you active? Do you do anything physical like gardening, play a sport or do some weights? If you do I think you need to get this weakness checked out pretty soon, that seems like a big red flag.

Good luck to you and I hope you check back in with updates and more information.
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:18 PM
Inked Inked is offline
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What's your general health? Do you workout? Go to the gym? Do you get pain in other physical activities?

Have you tried other size guitars? Other positions to hold it such as classical between the legs vs standard on the right leg?

Do you stretch out before, during and after playing?

All these things make a huge difference.
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