A Tuning Fork question

[perttime]

Do you have the possibility to get a recording of what happens when you are tuning?

Not hearing the oscillation/beats is difficult for me to understand - but I learned it many moons ago.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by SteveBurt

I just tried again last night. Detuned one string a bit and then tuned it back slowly, playing the two together and listening for beats (I was using the A string and listened for beat against both the low E and the D string).
Couldn't hear the beats.
I understand the science behind it; I also understand this is how piano tuners do their thing - playing octaves and listening for beats.
Must just be me.

How then do you judge when the two strings are in tune? (Without a tuner, that is)
You can presumably tell that one is lower than the other, played one by one. But when playing the two strings together, it must sound different to you when they're in tune to when they're out of tune, yes? When in tune, the two notes will blend smoothly. When out of tune (just a tiny amount) - well, how would you describe the sound? What are the characteristics of the joint sound of two out-of-tune strings?
If you can tell any kind of difference between the out-of-tune sound and the in-tune sound, then what you are hearing is beats, nothing else.

IOW, try to hear the out-of-tune sound as not two separate strings, but one sound. Describe that sound. It's not "smooth", is it? It's "rough", "discordant", right? - or some similar adjective. What causes the impression of roughness (or however you want to describe it)? It's an interference between the frequencies that manifests itself as slight variations in volume (a real acoustic phenomenon).

IMO, it's not actually possible to tune one string to another without hearing the beats, even subconsciously. I.e, the way we tell the strings are exactly in tune is when the beats disappear.

I'll admit I might not have been consciously aware of it when I first began on guitar. But once I focussed on the difference, as I was tuning, I could tell that it was down to that pulsing sound, which got slower as the strings got closer in tune, and then disappeared.

[stanron]

Originally Posted by SteveBurt

I just tried again last night. Detuned one string a bit and then tuned it back slowly, playing the two together and listening for beats (I was using the A string and listened for beat against both the low E and the D string).
Couldn't hear the beats.
I understand the science behind it; I also understand this is how piano tuners do their thing - playing octaves and listening for beats.
Must just be me.

Have you ever sat in your car at a turning, indicating to turn behind another car indicating to turn? The light on your dashboard goes on and off at a different speed to the car in front. At one point they go on and off together and then they gradually go out of phase as one is faster than the other. Then they come back into phase again. With the sound equivalent to this the notes are louder when the strings move together and quieter when they move against one another. This louder and quieter is the 'beats'. You hear them best playing harmonic notes. The fifth fret harmonic on the low E against the seventh fret harmonic on the A string is a good example. If, both notes sounding at once, you hear no fluctuation a slight tuning change on one of the strings should start it off.

If this doesn't work, how good are your strings? Are they due for a change?

[SteveBurt]

Originally Posted by JonPR

How then do you judge when the two strings are in tune? (Without a tuner, that is)
You can presumably tell that one is lower than the other, played one by one. But when playing the two strings together, it must sound different to you when they're in tune to when they're out of tune, yes? When in tune, the two notes will blend smoothly. When out of tune (just a tiny amount) - well, how would you describe the sound? What are the characteristics of the joint sound of two out-of-tune strings?
If you can tell any kind of difference between the out-of-tune sound and the in-tune sound, then what you are hearing is beats, nothing else.

IOW, try to hear the out-of-tune sound as not two separate strings, but one sound. Describe that sound. It's not "smooth", is it? It's "rough", "discordant", right? - or some similar adjective. What causes the impression of roughness (or however you want to describe it)? It's an interference between the frequencies that manifests itself as slight variations in volume (a real acoustic phenomenon).

IMO, it's not actually possible to tune one string to another without hearing the beats, even subconsciously. I.e, the way we tell the strings are exactly in tune is when the beats disappear.

I'll admit I might not have been consciously aware of it when I first began on guitar. But once I focussed on the difference, as I was tuning, I could tell that it was down to that pulsing sound, which got slower as the strings got closer in tune, and then disappeared.

I'm very bad at hearing when two strings are in tune without a tuner - I can tell which is higher when they are far apart, but when they get close, I can't.
Years ago, before electronic tuners existed, I basically gave up on trying to learn guitar because I would spend 30 minutes trying to tune the thing and still fail to get it in tune.
I can tell if the guitar is way out of tune just by playing an open chord (G major is a good one); But I can't tell if it is a bit out of tune.
That's why I thought listening for beats would help.
Except I can't hear the beats.
The joint sound of two out of tune strings doesn't sound much different to the joint sound of two in-tune strings to me.
It evidently does to other people. Never mind; I have a tuner!