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  #16  
Old 05-01-2016, 09:19 AM
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While a banjo could be a perfect fit in Rob's family, an electric guitar might be better.

I'd be pretty enthused about a cf guitar along the lines of the old Danelectro U2--a hollow, thin-bodied, light, highly playable, electric guitar.

This would probably be the easiest cf guitar to make, would nicely expand Journey offerings, and would be an instrument that could keep up with a 7 year old on the drums.
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  #17  
Old 05-01-2016, 10:19 AM
steelvibe steelvibe is offline
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Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Rob;

A 7 yr old boy on the drums, a 4 yr old grooving girl, a drooling baby boy, and a patient wife--This family is ready for a banjo.

So, if not a banjo, a suitcase guitar? Or maybe a dulcimer? The suspense is killing me.
Any time I hear banjo and drool in the same sentence going forward I'm gonna just have to crack up. A few days before I read this post I heard a running banjo joke thread with: "How do you know if a room is level? When the banjo player drools from both sides of his mouth!"

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  #18  
Old 05-10-2016, 12:00 PM
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Rob;

You indicated that you are still working on the neck and fret board for the Journey nylon string guitar. I'd like to weigh in on your decision making.

I've developed an affinity for a 1 7/8" nut width. That is the width of many hybrids and I think there's a very good reason for going to that width.

The classical, nylon string has a 2" nut width, which is daunting for steel string players who are used to a 1 6/8" width. Conversely, the 1 6/8" nut width is tight for nylon string players. The 1 7/8" with is a compromise width that is easily adapted to by both steel and nylon players.

This is not to say that a 1 6/8" nut is out of the question. My Rainsong Parlor nylon has the narrow nut and I've grown accustomed to it. But I suspect that the RS nylon is aimed at steel string players and is not so appealing to nylon players.

Just a thought.

And, by the way, is a there a time frame for when you will reveal your new surprise instrument?
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  #19  
Old 05-12-2016, 09:02 PM
robailey robailey is offline
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Hey Evan,

I'd be curious to hear what others think about nut width. For the OC520 we went for a traditional classical scale and neck, because it sounds very similar to a traditional classical guitar. However, I know classical guitarists are extremely demanding when it comes to tone. I'm curious what others think on traditional vs crossover neck. I'd tend to think if we went with a crossover neck for nylon, we'd get a little more tolerance for the tonal result. thoughts?

The surprise instrument should be demoing this fall and shipping by NAMM '17. Best case is we'd have a classical demo at the show, but I can't make any promises... As for the new product, if you play live or in a group - you'll want one.

Rob
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Last edited by robailey; 05-12-2016 at 10:30 PM.
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  #20  
Old 05-13-2016, 10:54 AM
jkwrpc jkwrpc is offline
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I stand on the other end from Evan. I prefer the traditional 2" nut width. While I am okay with the standard scale, I would prefer something shorter say about 630mm.

I like the traditional (no cut away) body style. A flat to nearly flat radius.

There are already cross-over nylon CF guitars out there, there is not a traditional style classical CF out there.
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  #21  
Old 05-13-2016, 12:18 PM
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John;

Glad you are weighing on this. We've had this discussion many times and I think that there is a very good reason why CF nylon instruments are generally hybrid.

I believe that the primary reason is that traditional, classical guitar players are probably the most resistant of players when it comes to modifications. They are very much into wooden, fat necked, wide nuted, 12 fret instruments with no cutaways and no electronics. I believe that such players are small in number and not likely candidates for carbon fiber instruments.

The larger market, however, is less defined and all over the place. Jazz, country western, folk, blues, pop players, and so forth, all have varying notions of what they want. Hybrid guitars, in my estimation, tend to be compromises that may not suit any particular player, but are functional for just about everyone.

It will be interesting to hear what other forum members have to say.

I think its neat that Rob is throwing the question out to us and I hope he gets a lot of response.
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  #22  
Old 05-13-2016, 02:00 PM
Res Ipsa Res Ipsa is offline
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It is a testament to this great CF forum, and to Journey Instruments, that they and other makers of fine CF guitars listen to opinions from forum members here about possible new CF guitar designs.

Hat's off.

I can only add, being one who alternates in no particular order between playing electric 6-string and acoustic 6-string guitars, including 3 CF guitars, that I can adapt easily to the 1 7/8" neck as well as the narrower dimension found on most electric guitars. Not owning a nylon classical guitar, I for one have stayed away from them - partly because the 2" nut width and the uber flat fingerboard are so weird by comparison, forcing me to adapt my note, chording and slide techniques. Which means it doesn't sound to my ears like the "me" playing who I am used to, if that makes sense.

I'd love to play my style on familiar dimensions, and have that sound and feel like nylon.

Not to downplay opinions from classical guitarists (they are valid), I suspect that I might me in the majority on this question when it comes to marketing a nylon CF to folks who are accustomed to playing a variety of rock, blues, jazz, country, etc.
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  #23  
Old 05-13-2016, 08:01 PM
new2guitar_eh new2guitar_eh is offline
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Nylon continues to be a possible for me. Like others have stated, 1 7/8 with radiused fingerboard please
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  #24  
Old 05-14-2016, 12:25 AM
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Hasn't Emerald even made a nylon using 1 3/4" in the past?
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  #25  
Old 05-14-2016, 07:41 AM
jkwrpc jkwrpc is offline
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Evan is the expert on CF nylon hybrids. I believe BlackBird did one on a Super OM and the others have been Emerald creations. For some reason it sticks on my mind that Rainsong created a nylon hybrid but I don't know that it is in production.

The BlackBird Rider Nylon has the nut and scale I like, just not the body style. Cut the neck off of it and marry it to a Journey and you have a great guitar.

My simple point is the marketplace has CF nylon hybrids but not a traditional style classical guitar.

Will classical player purchase a CF version for travel. I suspect they would for all the same reason people here who own high end wood guitars and ukuleles have CF versions.

My 2 cents
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  #26  
Old 05-14-2016, 08:15 AM
robailey robailey is offline
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Hey All, thanks so much for the advice. We're watching and will take all the wisdom here in consideration.
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  #27  
Old 05-17-2016, 12:25 AM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robailey View Post
I'd be curious to hear what others think about nut width. For the OC520 we went for a traditional classical scale and neck, because it sounds very similar to a traditional classical guitar. However, I know classical guitarists are extremely demanding when it comes to tone. I'm curious what others think on traditional vs crossover neck. I'd tend to think if we went with a crossover neck for nylon, we'd get a little more tolerance for the tonal result. thoughts?
Long time reader, first time poster. This is the question I have been waiting for.

Over the past two years, I have been transitioning from steel string electric to nylon string acoustic. The reason why it has taken so long is that I haven't found the right guitar. My search led me to the AGF, where I became aware of carbon fiber.

Nylon crossovers are the newest style of guitar, and the details haven't been dialed in like they have for classical and steel string acoustic guitars. I've been using a classical guitar during my search, but I have no intention of becoming a classical guitarist. What I'm looking for is a nylon string guitar that allows me to continue playing my current style of music with the technique I have developed over many years of playing steel strings, while adding the softer tone and playability of nylon to my musical palette.

I also have an electrical engineering degree, so when I analyze guitars, I dive in to the details. As an engineer, I know the most effective way to experimentally design something is to deliberately make one version that is a little too big, and another version that is a little too small. This establishes a range, and the goldilocks guitar is somewhere in the middle. Fortunately, with regard to neck width and string spacing, this has already been done. For my technique, a traditional classical guitar is a little too big, and the Rainsong NP12 is a little too small. The goldilocks neck dimensions are:

Neck width at nut: 1 7/8" or 48mm.
Neck width at 12th fret: 2 1/4" or 57mm

I recently bought a wooden crossover with goldilocks neck dimensions, because the classical was beginning to hurt my left arm, but the string spacing wasn't right. So last week I bought a set of nut slot files and some blank nuts and saddles, with the intention of discovering the string spacing range. For the purpose of this experiment, I am controlling string spacing by creating notches in both the nut and saddle.

It turns out that classical guitar dimensions are the way they are for a good reason. Reducing the nut width to 48mm can still produce a fine guitar, but string spacing is so tight that even a 0.2mm adjustment can spell the difference between comfortable and unplayable. As string spacing gets wider, the gap between the E strings and the fretboard edge gets smaller, so the range in this design space is defined by the following:

1) What is the minimum fretboard edge gap that prevents the high E string from slipping off the edge? This defines the maximum allowable string spacing. My current wooden crossover spacing is too wide.

2) What is the minimum string spacing that prevents accidental muting of adjacent strings? This, by definition, defines the minimum allowable string spacing. The Rainsong NP12 is too narrow.

I am now experimentally determining the goldilocks string spacing. My starting point is:

String spacing at nut: 1 5/8", or 41.3mm
String spacing at saddle: 2 1/4", or 57.2mm

This produces a fretboard edge gap of 1/8" at the nut and 5/32" at the 12th fret. Based on my experience with the factory setup, I suspect this is the absolute minimum fretboard edge gap that can safely guarantee no slipping. I will then create a nut/saddle pair to identify the minimum possible string spacing that is still playable. I suspect this will be 40mm at the nut and 56mm at the saddle. It will take me a few days to do this, since my nut shaping skills are currently non-existent, but my confidence is limitless.
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  #28  
Old 05-17-2016, 03:25 AM
sirwhale sirwhale is offline
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Hi Tom

I'm also constantly thinking about carbon fibre crossovers, but they are expensive so I don't want to dive in anywhere. What was the wooden cross over?

Anyway, I have sent you a private message - look at the top right of the page under your forum name.
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  #29  
Old 05-17-2016, 05:49 AM
jkwrpc jkwrpc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom2 View Post
Long time reader, first time poster. This is the question I have been waiting for....

It turns out that classical guitar dimensions are the way they are for a good reason...
I think we tend to forget the classical guitar has developed to the current specs over hundreds of years. That means thousands if not millions and millions of players and luthiers that came to settle on the form we associate with that guitar.

Its a design that has been well considered and on that has had luthiers and players take to a place they consider perfection.

That time tested design is a hole in the current CF guitar lineup.
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  #30  
Old 05-17-2016, 06:12 AM
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Acousticado Acousticado is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkwrpc View Post
I think we tend to forget the classical guitar has developed to the current specs over hundreds of years. That means thousands if not millions and millions of players and luthiers that came to settle on the form we associate with that guitar.

Its a design that has been well considered and on that has had luthiers and players take to a place they consider perfection.

That time tested design is a hole in the current CF guitar lineup.
The problem for CF builders is, the time tested design tends to appeal to traditional nylon classical players who are very used to tradition and are even less likely to venture into the world of CFs than wood steel string players even if the neck specs were designed to specifically appeal to them. So cracking that nut likely isn't the market that CF builders are aiming for...at least for quite some time. Rather, as CF builders are already focussed on steel string instruments, offering such players a nylon option has much greater chance of acceptance to make it worthwhile enough to try at all.
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