Torrefied sitka and mahogany - video and pictures

[N K Forster]

There is a lot of talk on the old interweb about this torrefied spruce. Is it all hype? Only one way to find out... I made one.



Nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/blog...pruce-guitars/

[Ozzy the dog]

That certainly does sound and look wonderful (as we would expect from one of your creations).

Does a guitar sound better as it ages, or does it just sound different?

I've been playing My Lowden for 20 years now and I would say it sounds different now to when it was new. That said, it sounded fantastic new and still sounds fantastic now - just different. I feel if I'd just jumped in now I would have missed that transition over the years.

However, if this guitar sounds this good 'new', how different will it be as it ages?

Well Nigel, to find out if it sounds 'old' when 'new' you made a guitar. I wish I had the funds to order one so I could monitor any change over the next twenty years +.

You'll have to keep this thread going for a couple of decades so we can all judge

[N K Forster]

Originally Posted by Ozzy the dog

That certainly does sound and look wonderful (as we would expect from one of your creations).

Does a guitar sound better as it ages, or does it just sound different?

I've been playing My Lowden for 20 years now and I would say it sounds different now to when it was new. That said, it sounded fantastic new and still sounds fantastic now - just different. I feel if I'd just jumped in now I would have missed that transition over the years.

However, if this guitar sounds this good 'new', how different will it be as it ages?

Well Nigel, to find out if it sounds 'old' when 'new' you made a guitar. I wish I had the funds to order one so I could monitor any change over the next twenty years +.

You'll have to keep this thread going for a couple of decades so we can all judge

Not everyone has 20 years to wait! Some of my customers are very clear about this. If they are advancing in years, they often make the point that they don't want to wait years for the guitar to blossom. In the past I've always suggested wester red cedar as a good option, but now I'll offer this too.

What I'd like to apply this wood to is my Model D-SS design. Now that would be interesting...

n
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/blog...fied-d-guitar/

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by N K Forster

Not everyone has 20 years to wait! Some of my customers are very clear about this. If they are advancing in years, they often make the point that they don't want to wait years for the guitar to blossom. In the past I've always suggested wester red cedar as a good option, but now I'll offer this too.

What I'd like to apply this wood to is my Model D-SS design. Now that would be interesting...

n
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/blog...fied-d-guitar/

Torrification is a process developed from the "plato process" .There is a violin maker "Don Noon" who is a former NASA rocket scientist. Put the rovers on Mars. He developed his own method and oven to process wood in about 2007....MUCH of this "torrification" is actually to some degree "theft" and or internet observers studying Dons evolution online on the violin forum we all participate in.

He is really getting fantastic violins and finally achieving some commercial success...

But this is what I will say, if you want to learn details about whats really going on I suggest either contacting Don directly via Maestronet.com or googling him and his process. But I guarantee we would not be talking about
this unless someone with some money was secretly observing Dons posts and basically took the idea and commercialized it. There is no one in the world I can think of who has the scientific methodology to explain, document and prove whatever may be going on "scientifically"

This process as you point out can make for some great sounding instruments, but more importantly its just what you said, it makes unsuitable wood suitable. I have the exact same feelings about Sitka as you do and generally wont use it.

Choosing wood as you know is paramount, my feelings are that torrification helps, but will not override the makers ability to choose wood, better untorrified tops can be found.

Frankly I think its a way for suppliers to treat crappy wood and make it useable

But I really like the sound of your guitars none the less

[N K Forster]

Originally Posted by jessupe

Frankly I think its a way for suppliers to treat crappy wood and make it useable

If that is the case, it's excellent news. Why let wood go to waste? I have to say, I was very impressed with the guitar. And I've made hundreds of guitars. I've a torrefied sitka top tenor guitar in the spray shop just now, so it'll be interesting to hear that in a few weeks.

Nigel

www.nkforsterguitars.com

[jessupe]

Well yes I agree. I think builders who are "really in to it" as far as being in business, producing guitars with sales... and then really liking torry tops , is that for a small investment one can build their own oven that will produce the same results.

You need to build a vacuum oven , that is basically a chamber that you can suck all the air out of, then introduce some moisture and heat.

The removal of the air not only takes oxygen out which will prevent any combustion {however I do not think those temps are reached } but it squeezes the heck out of it, like using a vacuum for a glue up. The moisture make the wood pliable during the process and really helps compaction.

This process alters the hemicellulose and lignin as well as disrupts the "Sacks" that contain bound water. Many get ruptured in the process thus reducing its ability to hold bound water and have it replaced by new atmospheric regional humidity. Or its really stable....It is basically mimicking seasoning which is simply expansion and contraction cycles happening over multiple years altering the internal structure in a similar way as the cooking process...

So if your really into it, I know that an oven can be made so you can not only choose wood that would be great without being processed but you can then process that wood yourself.

Heres some basic wiki info

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermally_modified_wood

There is also lots of research and testing using microwave processing, something that I have done with violins and got good results with.

[N K Forster]

Originally Posted by jessupe

So if your really into it, I know that an oven can be made so you can not only choose wood that would be great without being processed but you can then process that wood yourself.

I've seen a few threads about building a small oven for baking tops but not an oxygen free one. Do you have a link?

Nigel

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by N K Forster

I've seen a few threads about building a small oven for baking tops but not an oxygen free one. Do you have a link?

Nigel

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/

As I suggested, I would research or even contact Don Noon, he is generally pretty sharing of info, I know he hangs out at Maestronet.com, the violin forum. He may have clammed up after all this but it's worth a shot. For many years it was a topic over there discussed quite regularly, the results of processing and quite a bit about the oven itself. I'm not sure I would use the term "oxygen free" as much as I would "vacuum chamber".

[Ozzy the dog]

This has got me thinking (but not necessarily making sense). If the object is to heat the wood in an oxygen free vacuum, rather than building an oven that can be sealed to maintain a vacuum, would vacuum sealing the wood in a silicon envelope have the desired effect?

Does it have to be a vacuum or could it be filled with Carbon Dioxide to expel the oxygen?

If so, it would be relatively cheap to make an envelope from silicon sheet or liquid silicon – the sort you get for food moulds. This could then be ‘oven baked’ in a conventional oven.

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by Ozzy the dog

This has got me thinking (but not necessarily making sense). If the object is to heat the wood in an oxygen free vacuum, rather than building an oven that can be sealed to maintain a vacuum, would vacuum sealing the wood in a silicon envelope have the desired effect?

Does it have to be a vacuum or could it be filled with Carbon Dioxide to expel the oxygen?

If so, it would be relatively cheap to make an envelope from silicon sheet or liquid silicon – the sort you get for food moulds. This could then be ‘oven baked’ in a conventional oven.

To the best of my knowledge, based on being involved in MN.com while Don was going over all this....is that there are three things needed at the same time in the right proportions, heat, moisture {not lots} and a vacuum environment.

Dons oven has a drip pan that catches all the "juice" that gets squeezed, steamed out..

The only thing that I think would be an issue is the size of guitar wood vs violins in that you ned a bigger oven. I'm quite sure Don built his from parts and stuff available. He may have built the control module however.

I think the only real concern and wild card is that those who observe such things have potential concerns about the integrity of the material over many years as the processed wood has not had years of observation. But I think most agree that it can definitely make for improved tone with many cuts of wood, but I still think cuts not torried can be just as good or better, but I do have curiosity about doing it to great pieces of wood.

I also have concerns about making a great top that has great characteristics untorry , then being torry'd and making it too hot. It may actually be best for making slightly too stiff non elastic wood like sitka just right, and may make wood that's great as it is "too" much.

Its certainly a thing of interest and I'm sure more makers will be experimenting around with it and more about it shall become known.

Again with the internet and "key words" any one with any interest in anything can really get quite deep into any subject they desire, there is lots of info on thermal processing, what it does and why, out there in the web.

Most understanding of wood and its science comes from the construction and or building industry, which is where thermal processing came from {plato processing comes to mind}. There are many methods and ways to do it, so it's quite new taking this science originally developed for building and architecture and applying it to acoustic science and instrument making.

Again I would say that we are lucky to have a guy who worked for NASA at a very high level, who decided to retire and devote his life to understanding "whats going on with sound, wood and such" mostly related to violin, but there is lots of cross over info, and also just so happened to talk about it daily, post virtually all his results and tons of information. So his work and others is available out there. So again I would encourage people to track down Dons work on this subject if they want to get a better understanding of it.

[Ozzy the dog]

Thanks for the information Jesuppe, you are obviously more informed than I on this subject. I had not even heard of or considered this subject before Nigel posted this thread but I am finding it more interesting as the thread develops.

My suggestion of sealing the wood in silicon was derived from your likening of the vacuum gluing method earlier in this thread. Perhaps Don would be well placed to comment on the practicality of this and many other possibilities (if he hasn’t already done so).

As you say, the big unknown is the effect time will have on the treated wood. I can’t imagine there would be much of an adverse effect on the integrity of the wood over time but it will be interesting to see if the tonal qualities develop at the same rate as ‘fresh’ wood, if at all.

One thing is certain though is that Nigel has definitely proved a guitar made in this way does sound and look fantastic ‘out of the box’.

As previously commented on, it would also be nice to think there may be practical ways to use alternative timber in a world of increasing concern over environmental issues.

Nigel - Don Noon has a Web site for his violins with a contact email address if you haven’t already contacted him.

http://www.noonviolins.com/

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by Ozzy the dog

Thanks for the information Jesuppe, you are obviously more informed than I on this subject. I had not even heard of or considered this subject before Nigel posted this thread but I am finding it more interesting as the thread develops.

My suggestion of sealing the wood in silicon was derived from your likening of the vacuum gluing method earlier in this thread. Perhaps Don would be well placed to comment on the practicality of this and many other possibilities (if he hasn’t already done so).

As you say, the big unknown is the effect time will have on the treated wood. I can’t imagine there would be much of an adverse effect on the integrity of the wood over time but it will be interesting to see if the tonal qualities develop at the same rate as ‘fresh’ wood, if at all.

One thing is certain though is that Nigel has definitely proved a guitar made in this way does sound and look fantastic ‘out of the box’.

As previously commented on, it would also be nice to think there may be practical ways to use alternative timber in a world of increasing concern over environmental issues.

Nigel - Don Noon has a Web site for his violins with a contact email address if you haven’t already contacted him.

http://www.noonviolins.com/

Yup, several Australian universities have been working on microwave tech as it relates to several gum species. Microwaving gets similar results but with a different more internally disruptive way, yet maintains structural integrity, think microwave popcorn kernels. End results are once unusable lumber can be used based on its ability to now absorb chemical treatment making it suitable for exterior usage.

For instruments, I have micro'd violin tops with a cup of water in the micro, starting and stopping, relocating to prevent any internal scorch....but if done right, the dimension will increase and tons saps/juice sweats steams out....I noticed a definite improvement from the uncooked previous instrument.

I think theres lots to it and I feel that with a little work and some small investments those that are really into it can process their own wood for a reasonable price.

It is interesting that Santa Cruz stopped using it, I think? said they could not justify the extra cost. I think that's what I read.