The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
  #136  
Old 03-07-2018, 08:59 AM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,882
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lloydleo6 View Post
Went to the Taylor Guitar Road show for the first time and tried these new guitars with V-Class Bracing. Really noticed the sustain I got from the Builders Edition and 914CE when doing triads and notes in the upper registers/post 12-fret. Great work by Andy Powers I must say.
The "wah" effect you get with X-braced guitars when you try a capo on the 5th or thereafter isn't there so I must say he got some innovative ideas for recording musician. To add to that, because of the added volume, there is less need for precision mic-placement when recording.

Now, if only I could afford them. Will wait for the more reasonable priced solid bodies to have them and get maybe a 714 or 414.
It is so refreshing to read an opinion based on actual experience. thanks for posting
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1

Last edited by KevWind; 03-07-2018 at 09:05 AM.
  #137  
Old 03-07-2018, 12:39 PM
Picker2 Picker2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Belluno, Italy
Posts: 1,414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lloydleo6 View Post
Went to the Taylor Guitar Road show for the first time and tried these new guitars with V-Class Bracing. Really noticed the sustain I got from the Builders Edition...
I performed a sustain measurement based on the A to B comparison of an X-braced versus a V-braced 914ce by Jamie Dickson. Surprisingly, the sustain of the V-bracing was shorter. See below - details on YouTube page.

.
__________________
  #138  
Old 03-07-2018, 04:05 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 18,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
The entire premise of intonation 'issues' being solved by this new miracle bracing pattern, is complete hogwash. How on earth I managed to keep my guitars stably intonated for 50 years is a mystery. I'm delighted Taylor have solved it for me by inventing the solution to an imaginary problem.
It seems to me that you misapprehend what Taylor is referring to when they tout the benefits of the new bracing pattern with respect to intonation. There is the intonation of the strings and frets and there is the intonation of the sound emanating from the soundboard. As a result of the new bracing, the sound from the guitar top more faithfully replicates the intonation of the strings.

You might want to read the opening post to this thread:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...=1#post5661972

Last edited by Herb Hunter; 03-07-2018 at 04:36 PM. Reason: Addition of link.
  #139  
Old 03-07-2018, 04:39 PM
Picker2 Picker2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Belluno, Italy
Posts: 1,414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
It seems to me that you misapprehend what Taylor is referring to when they tout the benefits of the new bracing pattern with respect to intonation. There is the intonation of the strings and frets and there is the intonation of the sound emanating from the soundboard. As a result of the new bracing, the sound from the guitar top more faithfully replicates the intonation of the strings.
A guitar is a passive sound transducer. It basically acts like a multiband equalizer acting on the string signal. It does not generate tones by itself or shift frequencies. Just like you cannot more faithfully replicate the intonation of a guitar instrumental with the use of a multi-band equalizer, a guitar top can’t do it either. No matter what bracing it has. It’s principally impossible.
__________________
  #140  
Old 03-07-2018, 04:53 PM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,882
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Picker2 View Post
I performed a sustain measurement based on the A to B comparison of an X-braced versus a V-braced 914ce by Jamie Dickson. Surprisingly, the sustain of the V-bracing was shorter. See below - details on YouTube page.
Interesting. Couple questions. Why are there 3 tracks showing for a two tone A/B comparison ? And How did you confirm that both A and B (being from different performances) were plucked with the exact same intensity in each performance ? Why does the signal showing in the meters plummet at the last second (it seems as if the end of the signal is arbitrarily chopped off )? How are the meters calibrated and how accurately ? ... And lastly why does it look like in the second set of tones from 28 seconds on, that the V side is sustaining longer ?
One set out of two does not support a conclusion of one sustaining longer than the other .

While it may or may not be true, that V bracing sustains longer or shorter, however the posted test appears to have too many variables at play , to objectively address that question.
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1

Last edited by KevWind; 03-08-2018 at 09:04 AM. Reason: Fixed quote
  #141  
Old 03-07-2018, 04:55 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 18,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Picker2 View Post
A guitar is a passive sound transducer. It basically acts like a multiband equalizer acting on the string signal. It does not generate tones by itself or shift frequencies. Just like you cannot more faithfully replicate the intonation of a guitar instrumental with the use of a multi-band equalizer, a guitar top can’t do it either. No matter what bracing it has. It’s principally impossible.
Of course it is a passive transducer but an imperfect one that doesn’t necessarily vibrate at exactly the same frequencies as the sounds that excite it. Some such transducers are more faithful than others depending on their design.
  #142  
Old 03-07-2018, 05:15 PM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,882
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Picker2 View Post
A guitar is a passive sound transducer. It basically acts like a multiband equalizer acting on the string signal. It does not generate tones by itself or shift frequencies. Just like you cannot more faithfully replicate the intonation of a guitar instrumental with the use of a multi-band equalizer, a guitar top can’t do it either. No matter what bracing it has. It’s principally impossible.
Except for the fact that a passive transducer does modulate and change the signal and depending on that modulation can affect how accurately the signal is reproduced.. Otherwise for example the specific design and components of a passive loudspeaker would have no effect on the accuracy of the response, which in fact it does and makes a huge difference, regardless of how accurately the signal arrives at the passive transducer . Or a megaphone for example depending on the size and shape besides making the sound more focused, does change the balance and tonal accuracy of what is coming off the vocal cords. The reality seems to be closer to, it is "principally impossible" that the entire construction of the guitar body including bracing does not affect the accuracy of reproduction .
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1

Last edited by KevWind; 03-08-2018 at 09:05 AM.
  #143  
Old 03-07-2018, 07:12 PM
StevenL StevenL is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Monroe, Louisiana
Posts: 1,374
Default

I've never experienced a wah effect from capo'ing above the 5th fret. I'd love to hear some examples of this phenomenon. Maybe it's like the warbling and wavering on all non-V guitars.
  #144  
Old 03-07-2018, 07:19 PM
StevenL StevenL is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Monroe, Louisiana
Posts: 1,374
Default

I have experienced and pondered the dampening on certain pitches when approaching the 'resonant frequency(ies) of a guitar (any guitar). A kind-of phase cancellation thing? I can buy that there could be some benefit from fine tuning in that area. Maybe that's really what the claims sort of boil down to. If so, I'm in (to an extent.)
  #145  
Old 03-28-2018, 11:34 PM
Picker2 Picker2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Belluno, Italy
Posts: 1,414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Interesting. Couple questions. Why are there 3 tracks showing for a two tone A/B comparison ?
Because there are 3 guitars. :-) As you see, it’s not an A/B comparison, but an A/B and an A/C comparison. In each part of the clip I muted the track I did not want to hear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
And How did you confirm that both A and B (being from different performances) were plucked with the exact same intensity in each performance ?
In the original performance you can verify that it is pretty similar. However, since the sustain of a guitar closely follows an exponential decay, it suffices to calibrate the initial volume levels of both clips. As you can see from the volume level indicators, they both always start at exactly the same dB level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Why does the signal showing in the meters plummet at the last second (it seems as if the end of the signal is arbitrarily chopped off )?
That is what always happens when you stop playing and put away your guitar. ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
... And lastly why does it look like in the second set of tones from 28 seconds on, that the V side is sustaining longer ?
That’s the other V-braced guitar, the Koa one. It sustains a little longer indeed, but the difference is completely negligible as you can see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
How are the meters calibrated and how accurately ? ...
There are no meters. These are digital sound recordings. I just look at the numbers stored in the file. You are right that a nonlinear response of the microphone (compression) can be a source of error, but if that is the case, the whole sustain discussion takes an entirely new direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
One set out of two does not support a conclusion of one sustaining longer than the other .

While it may or may not be true, that V bracing sustains longer or shorter, however the posted test appears to have too many variables at play , to objectively address that question.
There are not many variables. Sustain can be represented by a single number and if you normalize both sound files, a noticeable difference in sustain should easily show up in this simple measurement. But I don’t hear a difference, neither do I see one.

Having said this, I have been surprised to see how Taylor is hyping the paradigm that “more sustain is always better”. I don’t agree at all here! I solely own Taylor Grand Concerts, because I prefer their shorter, more ‘uke-like’ sustain. Most Taylors, even when their tone is beautiful, have already too much sustain for my playing style. It makes me feel like I lose control and the guitar does its own thing.
__________________

Last edited by Picker2; 03-29-2018 at 02:25 AM.
  #146  
Old 03-31-2018, 09:46 AM
Picker2 Picker2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Belluno, Italy
Posts: 1,414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
Of course it is a passive transducer but an imperfect one that doesn’t necessarily vibrate at exactly the same frequencies as the sounds that excite it. Some such transducers are more faithful than others depending on their design.
Passive transducers do vibrate at the frequency that excites it. Of course, both the source frequency as well as the resonant peaks of the transducer always have a finite bandwidth (homogeneous line widening) so that in theory, when the two are very close, the center frequency of the transmitted signal could shift a little.

Then there is the story of the coupled resonators. I think the remarks made in this thread are a little too easy, because the arguments seem to come from simple two-resonator models. A guitar has at least 4 coupled resonators, which is more complicated to model and predict.

I have tuned several of my guitars close to resonant frequencies of the top, and played scales around those resonant frequencies in order to find any deviations. Interestingly, I discovered that the exact pitch of each fretted note quite easily changed from note to note if I was not very careful fretting each position with exactly the same force and angle. In other words, just 'playing guitar' - at least in my case - causes intonation issues on every single fret! In practice, however, I compensate for this all the time.

If I played very carefully, fretting each note with equal force and taking care not to bend the string sideways, etc., all notes were perfect on the spectrometer. Even when some of the fretted notes were close to resonant frequencies of the top.

My conclusion is that none of the guitars I tested (all X-braced Taylors and Martins) have intonation problems, despite the X-bracing. The more I think of this whole intonation story, the more I believe Taylor invented a solution that does not work for a problem that does not exist.
__________________
  #147  
Old 03-31-2018, 09:53 AM
Charmed Life Picks's Avatar
Charmed Life Picks Charmed Life Picks is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 9,032
Default

Wow, you go deep. Sounds like a huge gamble on Taylor's part. Sure Hope it works out.
__________________
CHARMED LIFE PICKS
[email protected]
Celebrating Seven Years in Business!
  #148  
Old 03-31-2018, 02:59 PM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,882
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Picker2 View Post
Because there are 3 guitars. :-) As you see, it’s not an A/B comparison, but an A/B and an A/C comparison. In each part of the clip I muted the track I did not want to hear.
Yes I see that now, I guess I just read your misstated statement that it was an A/B so you went out and bought 2 of these over hyped guitars ?????


Quote:
In the original performance you can verify that it is pretty similar. However, since the sustain of a guitar closely follows an exponential decay, it suffices to calibrate the initial volume levels of both clips. As you can see from the volume level indicators, they both always start at exactly the same dB level.
Except of course we actually can not tell the volume levels because #1 there are no db numbers on any of the meters and #2 there is no peak hold on the track meters which means we are in fact left with guessing and BTW some digital track meters (like the ones in Pro Tools) can and do have calibrated numbers and peak hold with numbers

Quote:
That is what always happens when you stop playing and put away your guitar. ;-)
OK so the answer is you do not know why a naturally decaying signal is suddenly chopped off .....My Guess is the file was trimmed off at that point


Quote:
That’s the other V-braced guitar, the Koa one. It sustains a little longer indeed, but the difference is completely negligible as you can see.
Except of course "negligible " is subjective and what matters is what you hear in the room at the time.



Quote:
There are no meters. These are digital sound recordings. I just look at the numbers stored in the file. You are right that a nonlinear response of the microphone (compression) can be a source of error, but if that is the case, the whole sustain discussion takes an entirely new direction.
of course there are meters they are little vertical ones on the left side of the the track
Repete ----some digital meters (like the ones in Pro Tools) can and do have calibrated numbers and peak hold with numbers



Quote:
There are not many variables. Sustain can be represented by a single number and if you normalize both sound files, a noticeable difference in sustain should easily show up in this simple measurement. But I don’t hear a difference, neither do I see one.
Again with two difference performances there are in fact variables in the performances period. Again with no numbers and no peak hold there are in fact variables and guesswork going And Looking at the LED meters at the bottom two things aparant #1 the Attack on the X braced guitar is faster (likely meaning it is plucked harder) and #2 both meters appear to brick wall and red line and arbitrarily stop which gives no indication if the peak levels attained are actually the same

Quote:
Having said this, I have been surprised to see how Taylor is hyping the paradigm that “more sustain is always better”. I don’t agree at all here! I solely own Taylor Grand Concerts, because I prefer their shorter, more ‘uke-like’ sustain. Most Taylors, even when their tone is beautiful, have already too much sustain for my playing style. It makes me feel like I lose control and the guitar does its own thing.
This I can completely agree with there certainly are times ( depending on playing style and technique) long sustain could introduce crowding of frequencies but of course also depending on playing style that can sometimes be addressed with various techniques so that when a sustain is desired it is there .
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1

Last edited by KevWind; 03-31-2018 at 03:27 PM.
  #149  
Old 04-01-2018, 03:03 AM
Picker2 Picker2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Belluno, Italy
Posts: 1,414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Except of course we actually can not tell the volume levels because #1 there are no db numbers on any of the meters and #2 there is no peak hold on the track meters which means we are in fact left with guessing and BTW some digital track meters (like the ones in Pro Tools) can and do have calibrated numbers and peak hold with numbers. .
I don't follow you. We don't care about the actual volumes, because we only need to compare two signals. However, there are dB numbers along the bottom axis and there are also peak indicators that clearly show both signals starting at identical volumes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
OK so the answer is you do not know why a naturally decaying signal is suddenly chopped off .....My Guess is the file was trimmed off at that point.
No! The answer is: the demonstrator took his fingers off the fretboard which made the strings stop resonating which stopped the naturally decaying signal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Again with two difference performances there are in fact variables in the performances period. Again with no numbers and no peak hold there are in fact variables and guesswork going And Looking at the LED meters at the bottom two things aparant #1 the Attack on the X braced guitar is faster (likely meaning it is plucked harder) and #2 both meters appear to brick wall and red line and arbitrarily stop which gives no indication if the peak levels attained are actually the same .
I believe you are overcomplicating things. This is a simple YouTube clip with the same guy strumming the same chords on two guitars, one of which is supposed to have a revolutionary new design that increases sustain. The increase in sustain makes demonstrators drop their jaws in awe, looking into the camera with bulging eyes, whilst stuttering: "Aargh... The string still rings!!!" (OK, I'm exaggerating a little now, albeit not much, but you get my point. ) However, I heard no difference in sustain.

When I did an exponential fit in the amplitudes of the WAV files there was no difference indeed. In order to show this to the folks on the AGF I normalized both files and created the video with the two level indicators (not everybody here will be comfortable with exponential fitting). And again, I saw no difference.

But in essence these are just two recordings of a guitar being strummed, one on the left channel, and one on the right channel. Maybe you should just start by listening to the left and right channel only, and decide if you hear a difference in decay.

Happy Easter to you!
__________________

Last edited by Picker2; 04-01-2018 at 03:59 AM.
  #150  
Old 04-01-2018, 07:19 AM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,882
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Picker2 View Post
I don't follow you. We don't care about the actual volumes, because we only need to compare two signals. However, there are dB numbers along the bottom axis and there are also peak indicators that clearly show both signals starting at identical volumes.
Of course we care about the possible differences in actual peak level (volume) the higher the signal peak level represents the longer the string vibration , and the more possible sustain time frame... But unfortunately by normalizing you completely invalidated the test, Normalizing arbitrarily brings levels to the same cut off and (Brick wall limits the signal) Also the db numbers at bottom are fixed to the bottom axis but there is no readout of the peak number in db ( like -5.3 db or - 3.6 db ) So no we can't see if in fact the two signals started at the "same identical volumes" it appears that what we can actually see is the two signals being cut off (redlined) at the same arbitrary peak level (which frankly is nonsense )


Quote:
No! The answer is: the demonstrator took his fingers off the fretboard which made the strings stop resonating which stopped the naturally decaying signal.
If the demonstrator pulled their fingers off the fretboard before the string was done resonating allowing the decay to cease naturally , then the demonstration is completely invalid as to actual sustain time. And only actually demonstrates the arbitrary differences in the two different performances.


Quote:
I believe you are overcomplicating things. This is a simple YouTube clip with the same guy strumming the same chords on two guitars, one of which is supposed to have a revolutionary new design that increases sustain. The increase in sustain makes demonstrators drop their jaws in awe, looking into the camera with bulging eyes, whilst stuttering: "Aargh... The string still rings!!!" (OK, I'm exaggerating a little now, albeit not much, but you get my point. ) However, I heard no difference in sustain.
Yes indeed "you are over complicating things" is what one often hears, when questionable test criteria is being defended . And yes expectation bias of the researcher can be and is a powerful factor, and the reason double blind testing was invented
Quote:
When I did an exponential fit in the amplitudes of the WAV files there was no difference indeed. In order to show this to the folks on the AGF I normalized both files and created the video with the two level indicators (not everybody here will be comfortable with exponential fitting). And again, I saw no difference.
Of course you did not see any difference To clarify by normalizing you took two files ran them through yet another algorithm program which arbitrarily made them reach the same peak level, regardless what the original files showed or did not ?????
Then did you manually by sight , time align them to start at approximately the same time and stack them into two different 1/2 s of a stereo track, WUWT ??????

Quote:
But in essence these are just two recordings of a guitar being strummed, one on the left channel, and one on the right channel. Maybe you should just start by listening to the left and right channel only, and decide if you hear a difference in decay.
No maybe I should go to a Taylor dealer and test for myself . Because it is unclear is the video showing the actual DAW recording waveforms? Or something you created after the fact ? If not the original why not ? If so was the recording made as a stereo track (which would be the only logical reason to have a left and right track ?????? If stereo then with two different mics and pre's or as two different a mono recordings with the same mic and pre ?
I just can't see all these questions and possible anomalies as being particularly valid science. Stereo or mono--- levels run through normalization ???--- no control over possible arbitrary fretting pressure differences--- no control over arbitrary finger pull off times ---- introducing unnecessary algorithms --- all creating numerous variables ....Sorry I just can't see this as science or valid proof of much of anything . And as you say if you feel your choices of guitar is based on just the right amount of sustain it is curious that you go to the trouble to test and post, Kind of feels more like agenda and crusade than objective research

And yes happy easter
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1

Last edited by KevWind; 04-01-2018 at 07:53 AM.
Closed Thread

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=