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  #16  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:51 AM
chitz chitz is offline
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We have three rescued cats. Great friends they are.

Wife would have more If I agreed to it. (not likely)
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  #17  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:17 AM
Neil K Walk Neil K Walk is offline
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Originally Posted by Cabarone View Post
Yeah there's a difference between strays and ferals. Ferals are wild and will not be domesticated. They won't cozy up and will usually wait until you leave the area before feeding. Most of the ones here are strays and exhibit varying degrees of social ability...
OK. I stand corrected. Let me abridge my previous comments that I would never adopt an outdoor cat ever again - especially a male cat. We have had spayed females for the most part but the two males we had (at separate times) would always get into fights when we let them out and spray in the house if we tried to restrict them. Eventually they would wander off, never to be seen again. Though we worried about what may have happened to them ultimately life without them was much simpler.
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  #18  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:54 AM
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...If the fixed cats stay in a given area, other non-fixed cats generally won't move into that area. So, it could be argued that your neighbor keeping the fixed feral cats around actually lowers the total number of cats going to your bird feeders. Imagine how many cats / kittens would hang around your food source if they were breeding unchecked?

I'm not trying to change your mind, just providing perspective from a different side.
I live in a "neighborhood" of 33 cabins in a wooded 66-acre area, and one of the rules for tenants is to restrict all pets from roaming. I really don't believe that introducing any animal into an ecosystem is a good idea, either fixed or not. When one lives amongst other people, even in the "wilds" of Albemarle County, VA, one assumes a certain responsibility for respecting the domestic space of other neighbors. I was and am perfectly willing to trap and remove either feral cats or house pets that roam. Ergo I really don't buy "the devil you know is preferable to the devil you don't know" argument unless one is looking to feed local coyotes. Fortunately my landlord sided with me...
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  #19  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:32 AM
JCave JCave is offline
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We outgrew our affection for cats when we lived in the 'burbs. Today, I go broke during the summer feeding the birds and squirrels. Living adjacent to a national forest is wonderful. It's a small community built where cats don't last long, particularly during winter. Natures predators are always on the prowl.. Huge 20 - 30lb square heads roam the area. Those are feral Tom cats that we're always trying to remove.

Last cat living in my house was against my will. Started urinating in my game room, bashing expensive train cars to the floor, using guitar cases for scratching posts, there will never be another in my home. Just sayin...
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  #20  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:46 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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I grew up with a dog and a cat and as they came along shortly after I was born, I thought of them as my brother and sister.

I have not lived a lifestyle suitable for a dog, but have had cats most of my life.

the first one, after I left home (my mum loved cats) was a feral kitten. We caught it probably too young to leave it's mother but she had an enormous littler and would not take food from us.

That frail little bundle of fluff lived with me in the evenings and weekends and in my fathers shop during the day cruising up and down his couter, and the busy London road outside. She moved with me to a one bed flat in Hertfordshire for a bout five years and had its throat ripped and its tail broken (the vet later congratulated me on the stitches I did on her the throat).

Then she moved south with me - She lived until she was 21.

We got a friend's Burmese tom - (I've still got the scars) then when he died, we got an "ex Queen" (breeders wear them out them want to dispose of them, and we saw ourselves as an old people's home for old lady cats.

We had two Queens and the last one was deaf - so the conversations were amusing. but our last one another tom, was a delight - the most chatty one ever. He became ill and died just as my cancer treatment was starting this April - That was hard because I knew he would have been a comfort.

We haven't got another yet - thinking that I need to get well enough to take Jane on a cruise or something when I'm well enough.

My allotment is running out of grave room!

Funny, I still hear him coming through the locked cat flaps and we both see his shadow from time to time.

My lovely vet once said that oriental breeds were like Italian cars - beautiful, but there was always something wrong with them.
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  #21  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by RedJoker View Post
I somewhat agree with you. If you have indoor cats, they should stay indoors, period.

There are a lot of different ideas on feral cats, though. The trap-neuter-release concept is to keep cats from breeding, obviously, but the release part is very important. If the fixed cats stay in a given area, other non-fixed cats generally won't move into that area. So, it could be argued that your neighbor keeping the fixed feral cats around actually lowers the total number of cats going to your bird feeders. Imagine how many cats / kittens would hang around your food source if they were breeding unchecked?

I'm not trying to change your mind, just providing perspective from a different side.
Unfortunately the subject has multiple contexts and questions that might apply with arguably no easy answers.

But first some qualifiers that should not be ignored :
Outdoor cats, feral, stray or pets let out to roam uncontrolled , That are not actual native wild species ( bobcat, lynx, mountain lion ) are not-- repeat (NOT) any kind of indigenous species . They are an invasive species period . As emotionally disconcerting as the idea might be (particularly with charismatic mega- fauna) . The idea that invasive species should be controlled or removed from the environment, is in fact a valid position ecologically and biologically speaking. Now how that might be implemented is a whole other different subject of discussion so I won't go there.


The notion of capture neuter and adopt is a great notion. However the notion of capture neuter and release feral or stray cats (as good as it may feel) is a fundamentally flawed notion from a biological/environment standpoint. They actually do not belong roaming the environment in the first place , neutered or other wise .


Also I am curious, the idea that fixed cats prevent non fixed cats from moving into an area, is a researched fact of territorial behavior, or a supposition based loosely on prototypical territorial behavior ?

And then also, even if correct while perhaps serving to somewhat limit overall total numbers still does not address the fundamental issue of an invasive species being in the environment of an area .

Now in full disclosure I am not a cat person (that is to say we do not own or care for any cats) but I am not anti cat either. I am actually very much a "critter person", I am much more drawn to most animals than people, and find most critters more interesting than most people. So I do completely understand that people are drawn to cats. But just as I do not believe that that feral or stray dogs belong in the environment and should be controlled where possible. I believe the same of cats
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Last edited by KevWind; 09-14-2017 at 12:39 PM.
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  #22  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:26 PM
Victoria Victoria is offline
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Originally Posted by RP View Post
I'm certain that Gasworker's post won't be the majority opinion, but I definitely agree with him. I also like to attract birds to my feeders and really resent neighborhood cats who either scare them off or dine on them. More power to you if you've chosen to do what you can for feral cats; but in my mind, once you start feeding and providing them with water, you take ownership for their actions. Whether feral or not, domestic housecats are not wild animals that have some sort of manifest destiny to live outside. If you live in a neighborhood, then it is up to the owner or adopted parent to keep these animals on your own property. If you live away from others, and your cats are basically barn cats, that's your call.

I feel so strongly about this that I was willing to go to war with a neighbor because they refused to keep their cats away from my house. They eventually moved to get away from me after I held up a Have-a-Heart trap and asked permission to catch their cats on my property and take them to the SPCA. Please note that they had placed the burden on me to keep their cats away from my yard, and I tried a number of strategies from talking to them to electronics to sprays, all to no avail....
I, too, agree. We live close to the centre of Bath (in the UK) and we are surrounded by cats. They're not stray or feral, they're people's pets, and they all seem congregate in our garden. Not only do they hunt the birds that we feed (although many of them are too overweight to be much of a threat) but they poo all over our borders. Even our terriers don't seem to deter them.

I don't dislike cats, although I'm very allergic to them, but I think cat owners should have to take as much responsibility for their pets as dog owners do.
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  #23  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:44 PM
RedJoker RedJoker is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Unfortunately the subject has multiple contexts and questions that might apply with arguably no easy answers.

But first some qualifiers that should not be ignored :
Outdoor cats, feral, stray or pets let out to roam uncontrolled , That are not actual native wild species ( bobcat, lynx, mountain lion ) are not-- repeat (NOT) any kind of indigenous species . They are an invasive species period . As emotionally disconcerting as the idea might be (particularly with charismatic mega- fauna) . The idea that invasive species should be controlled or removed from the environment, is in fact a valid position ecologically and biologically speaking. Now how that might be implemented is a whole other different subject of discussion so I won't go there.


The notion of capture neuter and adopt is a great notion. However the notion of capture neuter and release feral or stray cats (as good as it may feel) is a fundamentally flawed notion from a biological/environment standpoint. They actually do not belong roaming the environment in the first place , neutered or other wise .


Also I am curious, the idea that fixed cats prevent non fixed cats from moving into an area, is a researched fact of territorial behavior, or a supposition based loosely on prototypical territorial behavior ?

And then also, even if correct while perhaps serving to somewhat limit overall total numbers still does not address the fundamental issue of an invasive species being in the environment of an area .

Now in full disclosure I am not a cat person (that is to say we do not own or care for any cats) but I am not anti cat either. I am actually very much a "critter person", I am much more drawn to most animals than people, and find most critters more interesting than most people. So I do completely understand that people are drawn to cats. But just as I do not believe that that feral or stray dogs belong in the environment and should be controlled where possible. I believe the same of cats
I totally agree that cats should not be in the wild. I'm not arguing that point. My point is simply that they already ARE out in the wild and the question is how do we reduce the numbers / control the population. One option is to simply kill every one we see. Another option is to prevent those that exist from procreating but provide pressure against territory expansion. As to whether TNR is effective, you can find data both ways. I know which option I choose to support and I know which option others choose to support.

Now, having said that, the same could be said about the birds that people are feeding at their feeders. We have about 10 different bird feeders and a majority of the birds I see there are invasive species. Always a tricky discussion....
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  #24  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:11 PM
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I totally agree that cats should not be in the wild. I'm not arguing that point. My point is simply that they already ARE out in the wild and the question is how do we reduce the numbers / control the population. One option is to simply kill every one we see. Another option is to prevent those that exist from procreating but provide pressure against territory expansion. As to whether TNR is effective, you can find data both ways. I know which option I choose to support and I know which option others choose to support.

Now, having said that, the same could be said about the birds that people are feeding at their feeders. We have about 10 different bird feeders and a majority of the birds I see there are invasive species. Always a tricky discussion....
I was right with you up until "We have about 10 different bird feeders and a majority of the birds I see there are invasive species". Now I am confused, so most of the wild birds that come to your feeders are " invasive " ? Are you saying that shifts in types of bird populations (which happen for many reasons) are the most prominent numbers of birds in your area and directly attributed to just bird feeding, and those shifts are actually considered to represent an "invasive species" as opposed to say a possible change in the relationship of numbers of indigenous birds ?
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  #25  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:14 PM
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...I think cat owners should have to take as much responsibility for their pets as dog owners do.
I wholeheartedly agree and think that may be the cruxt of the issue. Some, not all and perhaps not many, cat owners seem to feel that cats enjoy some sort of eminent domain to wander around unfettered, simply because they are cats. I think that is why some urban areas have become havens for strays, feral cats, and others just out for a stroll and a roll in the hay....
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  #26  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:28 PM
Denny B Denny B is offline
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I wholeheartedly agree and think that may be the cruxt of the issue. Some, not all and perhaps not many, cat owners seem to feel that cats enjoy some sort of eminent domain to wander around unfettered, simply because they are cats. I think that is why some urban areas have become havens for strays, feral cats, and others just out for a stroll and a roll in the hay....

This is pretty much what we deal with in my neighborhood...

Far too many free wheelin' house cats let out to dig up flowers, crap in the flower beds and dine on the songbirds, before strolling home to be let in for the night..

But while we're on the topic of pets, I've encountered another nuisance about them that I've had to kindly explain to my pet loving friends...

I'm not one to ever drop by someone's home unannounced, no matter how close we are...if I'm there, I've been invited, and I'm expected...

But when I'm your guest, please do not allow your dog to jump on me, slobber on me, or hump my leg...

On the same note, I don't enjoy your cat brushing up against my legs, covering me with fur, and especially, I'm not there to provide another lap for the cat to sprawl across...

The vast majority of my friends know how I feel about it, and contain or restrain their pets while I'm a guest, and harbor no ill will against me because of my feelings on the subject...we're friends..

I've also had a very few folks over the years get offended and want to go to great length to "educate" me that their pets are family, the house is as much the pets home as the family's, how dare you, etc etc,, and this is where I politely excuse myself and leave...at that point I'm fully aware that those people have drawn the line in the sand, and we're not friends anymore...

C'est la vie...

Just a little common courtesy, please...
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  #27  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:40 PM
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Grew up with dogs, but found how cool cats are when my father-in-law left us his small house if we promised to take care of his cat. I guess he thought we'd just let him go.

Have had a bunch since. Of course, one of them just cost me $800. I had sold a guitar on Reverb and was getting ready to ship it. Pulled the case out and one of the darn felines had used it for a liter box. It proved impossible to get the odor out, so I had to send the guy back the money with some extra for not checking that out sooner. Oh, well. Cats are still cool.
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  #28  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by RedJoker View Post
...My point is simply that they already ARE out in the wild and the question is how do we reduce the numbers / control the population. One option is to simply kill every one we see. Another option is to prevent those that exist from procreating but provide pressure against territory expansion. As to whether TNR is effective, you can find data both ways. I know which option I choose to support and I know which option others choose to support.

Now, having said that, the same could be said about the birds that people are feeding at their feeders. We have about 10 different bird feeders and a majority of the birds I see there are invasive species. Always a tricky discussion....
Where I live, cats that roam are what I consider a very small problem, and I've dealt with it by approaching one particular neighbor who owned or at least maintained cats that roamed. As I said, this violates our lease and dealing with each and every cat/owner stops it from becoming a larger problem. The presence of avian invasive species is not a justification for introducing feline invasive species. Nor do I believe that having lots of spayed/neutered cats is necessarily better than having lots of fertile cats - it's really just delaying the inevitable. The introduction of any invasive, non-native flora or fauna upsets the ecological balance in large and small ways.

As hard-hearted as this may sound, the solution is for cat owners to maintain their animals so as not to interfere with neighbors' enjoyment of their own property. Feral, roaming and other free range domestic house cats should be caught, kept for adoption and then destroyed if unwanted...
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  #29  
Old 09-14-2017, 03:34 PM
AmericanEagle AmericanEagle is offline
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I am a bit surprised by what it seems like cat haters here, calling for the destruction of feral cats. What about roaming dogs? Or dogs on leashes, where the owner thinks it is ok for their dog to take a huge dump on my lawn, then walk away like nothing happened.
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Old 09-14-2017, 03:56 PM
RedJoker RedJoker is offline
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I was right with you up until "We have about 10 different bird feeders and a majority of the birds I see there are invasive species". Now I am confused, so most of the wild birds that come to your feeders are " invasive " ? Are you saying that shifts in types of bird populations (which happen for many reasons) are the most prominent numbers of birds in your area and directly attributed to just bird feeding, and those shifts are actually considered to represent an "invasive species" as opposed to say a possible change in the relationship of numbers of indigenous birds ?
Correct. There are birds in our area that have been brought here by humans (years ago, not native) that are being fed at these feeders. Much like food out for feral cats (brought here years ago, not native) are feeding native raccoons, squirrels, skunks, and opposums.
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