#46
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Rockbridge only produces around 60 guitars a year, so I can see their point. CNC machines are not cheap.
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Neal A few nice ones, a few beaters, and a few I should probably sell... |
#47
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I view the negativity as "purism" on the part of those who view it is not being truly hand-crafting. It's not necessity contempt as much as much as what others will allow in the process and call it hand-crafted.
For my part, a truly hand-crafted guitar means one that was built using rudimentary tools only no matter who did the neck, bracing, top, etc. Somebody still has to spray that finish on using a compressor and a gun, but that somebody is still doing it by hand and that is a human skill set.
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#48
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#49
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There are many things that we know exist that we don't know how to measure. Some things we have learned to measure. Some things we have not yet learned to measure. Measurement is not equivalent to observation: we may observe a thing long before we know how to measure it. It does not come into existence at the moment of measurement, but was already there. OMMV I get crotchety before I've had coffee in the morning... TW |
#50
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I do think that "hand-built" is more than just the tools that a builder uses. TW |
#51
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There are small production facilities who straddle the line. Santa Cruz, for example, has a team who builds the guitars. A guy who roughs out parts. Someone who does finishes. Someone who does necks. Someone else does inlay work. But they also have someone who voices the tops. Mark Traugott once held that position. He was followed by Roy McAlister. So are they "hand-built" or "factory?" Quote:
I have had people in court ask what I charge after watching me work, and then recoil, saying that I only spoke a few words to the judge. I usually laugh and then tell them that my clients are not paying by the word, but rather for the 4 years as an undergraduate that I put in and then three years of law school, plus my 15 years of experience, knowledge of the applicable law, and institutional knowledge of the particular court that I am in and the Judge that I am in front of. But feel free to represent yourself. I'm not even sure of why I am bothering to try and convince people that there is a difference between a hand-made custom guitar and a factory-to specification produced guitar. Can there be a great production spec guitar? Absolutely, when the specs match the characteristics of that individual top needs to be its best. The difference is that a small or solo builder is building to those characteristics. That point has been made over and over. And not just in this thread. TW Last edited by Mycroft; 11-19-2017 at 11:52 AM. Reason: typos |
#52
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My luthier built guitar was ~ half the price and built with love and care for the detail, which IMO really shows (and even more so "hears"). So far no one mentioned the really thoughtful article here: http://www.esomogyi.com/handmade.html I think that summarizes the topic very well. |
#53
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I just thought I would go back and watch the video of Dana Bourgeois' voicing" his tops ... which I have watched many times before ....I couldn't help but laugh at one of the comments (18 hrs ago as I write) , in which the commenter uses the phrase "ritualized self-delusion".
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#54
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Besides guitar, one of my other main interests is woodworking. And this same same discussion rages in parallel among woodworkers. About five years ago, I built a CNC router to help me in my woodworking. With its help I have built some rocking chairs (Maloof style), some other chairs, some fancy boxes, some signs, and even some parts for a guitar and a banjo. The CNC has helped do some things I would never attempt by pure handwork because it just takes too long for my level of patience and skill.
I toured the Taylor factory last summer, and was very impressed at their use of CNC for repetitive operations; and also their reliance on human hands and ears and eyes for the fine finishing touches. If any luthier is still carving necks with hand tools, they must not value their time very highly. I guess they must make their guitar tops by hand planing a tree trunk. My point is the magic is in the design and the sound it produces. How you achieve that design (and sound) whether in 100 hours by handtools, or in 10 hours with machines is irrelevant to me. The guitar is the thing, not how it was produced.
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Angie |
#55
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#56
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Just to add a couple of things...
My violin making teacher used to talk about trying to 'raise the standard of mediocrity'. As you learn more your average instrument should get better, and there should be fewer bad ones. IMO Martin's standard of mediocrity is well above that of many other production facilities, and the range of variation between the best and the worst correspondingly small. There is still a range, though. It brings up the interesting question of whether the best luthier built instrument is better than the best production line (as opposed to custom shop) Martin. In other words, is there an absolute ceiling somewhere, and do the better factories hit it from time to time? Do the hand makers hit it more often? rojdog49 wrote: "Somebody still has to spray that finish on using a compressor and a gun, but that somebody is still doing it by hand and that is a human skill set. " Spray finishes are pretty recent innovations. The first one to come into wide use was nitrocellulose lacquer, in the '30s,iirc. IMO nitro is actually not a very good wood finish in many respects, but it has become the standard due to it's widespread use in production shops. Prior to that guitars were usually finished either with shellac or oil-resin varnish. Either can be applied with a brush. Shellac is also the basic material for 'French polish' where it is applied with a pad in many thin coats. Classical makers often use FP, which has the advantage of going on thinner, and thus adding les weight and stiffness to the top, than any other finish. A good maker can get a nice looking FP finish with .002" or less of coating thickness. It's possible to put on brushed varnish and get a coating that's only .0025"-.0035" thick. It's difficult to spray a finish and end up with less than .005" of film. Some shops use a lot more. I have replaced tops on Ovations that had .040" of epoxy finish on them: a full millimeter. There is endless debate in the guitar world about what is the 'best' finish. They all have drawbacks and advantages. But, this is beside the point in a sense, which is that not all guitars are 'sprayed', and there are reasons not to. Oh, and there are computer controlled sprayers, although they may not have worked their way down to out level yet. Some makers talk about thinning the top or braces down to the absolute minimum required for structural stability, in order to get the most tone. The claim is that production shops tend to leave them heavy, and thus compromise sound output. I think it's more complicated than that. IMO the best guitars are more like the deacon's wonderful one hoss shay of the poem, which was built such that every part would last 100 years, rather than one or another wearing out prematurely. In the poem the conveyance did last 100 years to the day, and then all fell apart at once (becoming the precursor of the cars that fall apart just after you make the last payment...) . In the case of a guitar the best ones seem to have all of the parts in the proper balance to produce the 'best' sound, whatever that means. Again, given the variability of wood this can't be done using dimensionally standardized parts; there has to be some variation from one guitar to another to accomplish it. Production shops do tend to leave them heavy in some places, in order to avoid both warranty returns and some types of tone issues, simply because they can't take the time to customize things to achieve the same results with less weight. In other places they may end up lighter than they 'should' be; say, if the wood used turns out to be much less dense than the 'average' around which the design was based. The tone each maker aims for varies, but a good maker will know how to balance things to get that, along with as much durability as can be expected from something as highly stressed as a guitar. For some makers that will be the 'Ferrari guitar' that produces amazing sound for a while and then dies (see 'Flamenco'). Others aim for more longevity while still producing plenty of sound. |
#57
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I know this will get no love, but Magnum Opus guitars are made by hand without CNC machines as mentioned in their FAQ:
http://www.magnumopusguitars.com/faq.php "Every MO guitar is 100% hand-made without the aid of CNC machines. We even make our Ebony, Koa or Bone bridge pins and our tuning machine buttons by hand." There used to be a video on Youtube of their shop in Vietnam, I believe, and they are do everything by hand including the necks. It was neat. I can't find it now.
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#58
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So in your mind it is an either/or proposition? There is no room for a craftsman to choose which tools they want to use and make economic sense to them?
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#59
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I am by no means demeaning the skill of hand builders ... the woodworking skills of many of the top builders approach the level of the top furniture makers ... but if the methods used to maximize tone can't be explained concisely and clearly .. well ... the "Emperor's new clothes " syndrome cannot help but spring to mind. |
#60
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I say hand-built over factory any day! CNC is OK with me in a small shop, like Collings for example. I buy luthier built used guitars equal to a factory new price and you get so much more!
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