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  #16  
Old 10-30-2017, 10:36 AM
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bho bho is offline
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I agree with a lot of what's already been said. I will add a few things:

Do your homework on the luthier you select. Try to play his/her guitars. Most luthiers have a tone they tend to go for, and there is no substitute for playing more than one of the luthier's guitars to get a sense of that tone. If you can't, there are often videos on YouTube, or on Dream Guitars and Guitar Gallery's website that may help you get a sense for tone.

Ask around. The AGF is a wonderful place to talk to people about the guitars they have commissioned from the same luthiers. People are very honest when you PM them.

After tone, neck profile and nut width will determine how playable the guitar is. One of the best aspects of a customer build is the ability to find a luthier who can make a great "fit" that makes the guitar as comfortable and easy as possible for you to play in your style.

Good luck!
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  #17  
Old 10-31-2017, 08:37 AM
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I've never, ever heard a bad thing about any Charis. Two of the best Charis guitars I heard were both dreads, 12-fret with arm bevels. One had a Sinker Redwood top and Ebony back (I believe), the other had a Cuban Hog back and some kind of Spruce on top. As everyone has said, give Bill and idea of what you want to hear out of your guitar, he'll give you the right options to get there. As far as items I like in a guitar, arm and rib bevels are not optional for me on a custom build. I want extreme comfort, not just for now, but later on down the road. And I happen to like a sound port. I'm not a fan of shiny ornamentation, preferring contrasting wood accents. I like large side fret markers. Even after 40+ years of playing, I occasionally (or more than occasionally at times) look down and want to easily see the side markers.

Choose what is important to you, and you'll have a great experience. Good luck!
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  #18  
Old 10-31-2017, 10:05 AM
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Smile I agree with mikealpine

Bevels and sound ports for sure. I too am after major comfort for the long haul. And I also agree about bling. I do like dots or diamonds on the fretboard as I will tune it open and lay it down for lap slide! And large side markers help too.
I suggest the EVO gold colored fretwire. It is super hard and durable. And I have not found any tuners I like better than the Gotoh 510s. Since I sometimes retune one axe on stage they really help.
If you have a fave neck shape here is your chance to replicate it, hopefully!
Get the best case you can afford. This is no time to economize!

Make a complete spec sheet and send the Luthier pics of what you like if possible.

Talk frequently and trust your builder to get you what you want!

Have fun and enjoy the ride!!!

Cheers

Paul
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  #19  
Old 10-31-2017, 11:12 AM
Dion James Dion James is offline
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Originally Posted by El Conquistador View Post
After my many years of commissioning luthier built guitars, I have come to understand one critical thing. I have NO idea how to build a guitar, let alone a great guitar. Understanding that, I have created the following rules for commissioning a luthier built guitar:

1. Find a builer whose guitars have the tone you long for, that play like you want them to play, and aesthetics that make your heart skip a beat every time you open the case. A builder who you trust to create the instrument you want. A builder whose business practices inspires trust. And, a builder with whom you would enjoy working.

2. Communicate to that builder as thoroughly as you can how you play guitar including plectrum/fingerpick, settings (home on your couch, guitar circles, band) , style(s) of music and what you want to hear and feel when you play guitar.

3. Make the choices that builder designates as your to make.

4. Once this is all done, trust her/him to make all the other choices in order to accomplish what you want. DO NOT try to tell him/her how to build a guitar. In particular, do NOT come to a forum like this asking for advice. You either trust your builder or you do not. If not, go back to #1.

Steve


Fully agree!
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  #20  
Old 10-31-2017, 03:44 PM
Truckjohn Truckjohn is offline
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the whole "tone tone tone" thing is certainly a concern....

But really - how the guitar feels in your hands and its comfoft to you is at least as important. Perhaps MORE important if you want to have a keeper you play all the time.

Do you really specifically know what you like in a neck and scale length? What is your favorite fretboard radius?

Do you play seated or standing? If seated - is it in a formal playing position such as the typical classical position.. Or are you mostly laying back in a couch/big chair when you play?

For example - I see a lot of folks obsessing online about extra-deep 5"+ bodies, 12 fret dreads, big long scales over 25.5", and jumbo J-200 sort of patterns...

In real life - these often are super uncomfortable if you don't play standing up... Even if you are a big guy - they can give your arms and shoulders fits... And as such - they end up being commissions that get sent on down the road - even if they have fantastic tone...

The moral is - spend the money on neck profiles and ergonomics...
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  #21  
Old 11-02-2017, 03:45 PM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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The biggest mistake I made when I first started ordering custom instruments was to assume that builders who charge premium prices use nothing but premium woods and display nothing but premium chops.

Boy was I wrong.

One mistake in particular was so expensive that it still hurts to this day.
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  #22  
Old 11-02-2017, 04:53 PM
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The biggest mistake I made when I first started ordering custom instruments was to assume that builders who charge premium prices use nothing but premium woods and display nothing but premium chops.

Boy was I wrong.

One mistake in particular was so expensive that it still hurts to this day.
So, what is the lesson here?

Did you not vet you first builder sufficiently owing to your inexperience ( you didn't know what you didn't know), were you duped, or, what? Obviously you eventually found builders who were able to deliver for you.

What hard won wisdom can the OP take away from your experience?

Steve
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  #23  
Old 11-03-2017, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by El Conquistador View Post
So, what is the lesson here?

Did you not vet you first builder sufficiently owing to your inexperience ( you didn't know what you didn't know), were you duped, or, what? Obviously you eventually found builders who were able to deliver for you.

What hard won wisdom can the OP take away from your experience?

Steve
I guess the takeaway is to not make the same assumptions I made and to be careful when selecting a luthier and commissioning a guitar.

Back in those days I owned a bunch of acoustics -- a Martin, a couple of Gibsons, a pair of H&Ds, a Bourgeois and a Santa Cruz. In spite of the reasonable price tags of those guitars, I didn't know what a two-tone top was until I received my first custom.

I thought that high end luthiers would use master grade woods by default but apparently I had to ask for it... Sigh... I still think that is a ridiculous practice to charge high dollars and use top woods that frankly should be on a 16-series Martin at best.

And then I also paid high dollars for an instrument (not a guitar) that looked like it was built by some Asian dude who got rejected by the Eastman factory. What a piece of junk. A complete rip-off and the worst possible way to spend my money. This builder took months of hard work and savings and turned it into an instrument that looked, felt, played and sounded worse than Asian imports. Bottom line is -- if you have money give it to the top builders, don't spend it on those who are riding on coattails and charging big bucks without having the chops/care/attention to back it up.
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  #24  
Old 11-03-2017, 10:57 AM
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I thought that high end luthiers would use master grade woods by default but apparently I had to ask for it... Sigh... I still think that is a ridiculous practice to charge high dollars and use top woods that frankly should be on a 16-series Martin at best.
I remember this discussion. The contention was that "master grade" was based only on cosmetics and had no prediction of tone thus any complaint about a great sounding top's appearance was frivolous.

I however agree with you on this point. Most pictures of mass produced guitars have that ugly two-tone top. If it sounds good and you pay a couple thousand bucks for it, it's all good.

But, IMHO, the entire value proposition of a more expensive luthier built guitar is to get a guitar that is at least a couple of, if not many, steps above a mass produced guitar in workmanship, woods, features, tone, AND aesthetics. The price should include a perfectly book-matched top with absolutely no run out and I, like you, would just assume that to be the case with no need to specify this. And, in fact, my experience with luthier has been just that, perfection in every conceivable way. But, going forward, I will include this point in my communications with a builder.

So, as you said, the lesson is, don't assume. Understanding that your builder is an artist, not a mind reader, the burden is on you to specify every last thing you expect or want to your builder, even if it seems redundant. There is no such thing as too much communication with your builder.

Excellent point.

Steve
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  #25  
Old 11-03-2017, 12:51 PM
Mr Fingers Mr Fingers is offline
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Good luck with the design/build/buy process. For what it's worth, I would never, ever order a custom guitar because for me, seeing how an instrument settles in after a few years of play under string tension -- how it feels, how it sounds -- is just something I cannot predict or ignore by committing to an instrument on paper only. It's not even a matter of the finished instrument being good or bad -- it will probably be good indeed -- but a matter of being "best for me." Since I have had the experience of spending hours in great shops seeing and playing wonderful guitars made by great luthiers and having a variable response to them -- as most do, preferring one or the other -- I never want to be in the position of essentially having to walk home with the one I spec'd in advance. And finally, I have a weird aversion to many, even most of the guitars featured on this forum because they often seem to me to have a too-evident, too-ostentatious feature (or two, or in some cases many) that are what the owner likes but not really all that beautiful. I see lots of fussy, sometimes tricky features, and have no interest in that stuff. You'll rarely see a great violin builder incorporate such oddities or decoration. Fortunately, what were very expensive personal builds often show up for sale at a significant savings, and at that point the buyer has many choices, and is dealing with an instrument that actually exists and can be heard, and that's how I do my purchasing.
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  #26  
Old 11-03-2017, 03:13 PM
Tony Burns Tony Burns is offline
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It is extremely hard to get the exact sound you envision in a build .
I honestly believe - thats its better to buy an existing guitar and you know exactly that it has the sound that you want -their are alot of custom builds for sale at many upper end guitar sores- Id start their .Suggestion , either take a long drive, fly some where etc. to check out a guitar rather than buy blind.
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  #27  
Old 11-05-2017, 11:17 AM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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Originally Posted by El Conquistador View Post
I remember this discussion. The contention was that "master grade" was based only on cosmetics and had no prediction of tone thus any complaint about a great sounding top's appearance was frivolous.

I however agree with you on this point. Most pictures of mass produced guitars have that ugly two-tone top. If it sounds good and you pay a couple thousand bucks for it, it's all good.

But, IMHO, the entire value proposition of a more expensive luthier built guitar is to get a guitar that is at least a couple of, if not many, steps above a mass produced guitar in workmanship, woods, features, tone, AND aesthetics. The price should include a perfectly book-matched top with absolutely no run out and I, like you, would just assume that to be the case with no need to specify this. And, in fact, my experience with luthier has been just that, perfection in every conceivable way. But, going forward, I will include this point in my communications with a builder.

So, as you said, the lesson is, don't assume. Understanding that your builder is an artist, not a mind reader, the burden is on you to specify every last thing you expect or want to your builder, even if it seems redundant. There is no such thing as too much communication with your builder.

Excellent point.

Steve
I think you have been very lucky that your guitars have been one-tone tops. The vast majority of builders, even the most expensive ones, build guitars with two-tone tops.

I hear explanations all the time about how it's difficult to find a great top that looks great and has the potential to sound great -- but do luthiers know how difficult it is to save up $20K for essentially a wooden toy?

The other common argument that suggests that if you want a great sounding guitar you need to accept a two-tone top is illogical and unacceptable for two very simple reasons:

* What do you make of all the fine guitars that have one-tone tops? Do they all sound like cardboard?

* Assuming the answer to the above question is "no," it clearly means that if the only good sounding top in your inventory doesn't look good, you need to refresh your inventory.

It infuriates me to no end that some builders think it's okay to sell such expensive instruments and compromise on top quality and bark at consumers if they dare questioning their habits. And it's even worse when fellow guitar enthusiasts buy into those explanations because they think all luthiers speak the truth.
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  #28  
Old 11-05-2017, 11:27 AM
s2y s2y is offline
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It is extremely hard to get the exact sound you envision in a build .
I don't think it's that difficult if you're sticking to known sound clips and those specs. I just picked up a Bob Thompson torrified dread that sounds pretty darn close to the clips I heard. I also have a few Taylors that sound extremely close to the Youtube clips.

If deviating from the specs and/or using a different builder often means you're not going to sound the same. Different isn't necessarily good or bad.
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  #29  
Old 11-05-2017, 12:28 PM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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I doubt that I will ever order a custom build again - lots of disappointment.

Two points :

1. NEVER assume that you will get a good instrument just because the maker is a well known brand.

2. NEVER assume anything - don't order a custom build unless you know exactly what you want - woods, dimensions and the ability to convey exactly what you expect tonally.

Oh, another point : agree with thew luthier in advance that you will try and accept/reject BEFORE any personalisation is put on.

For the only custom build I still have this was the luthier's method - no down payment, pay on approval, then add stuff if wished.
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  #30  
Old 11-05-2017, 12:28 PM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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I don't think it's that difficult if you're sticking to known sound clips and those specs. I just picked up a Bob Thompson torrified dread that sounds pretty darn close to the clips I heard. I also have a few Taylors that sound extremely close to the Youtube clips.

If deviating from the specs and/or using a different builder often means you're not going to sound the same. Different isn't necessarily good or bad.
I mean no disrespect but as most people who dabble in both playing acoustic guitars and recording them, I find recordings (even the better ones) to be worth next to nothing in terms of getting an accurate idea of what a guitar sounds like in "real life."

If this approach works for you and you're happy with your guitars, that's great but personally I would never rely on a recording to make such a decision for myself.
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