technical strumming question

[samcatluth]

I'm stuck on something so bear with me....In a strumming example we have this...for 2/4 time you strum down and count "1 and" then you strum down up and count "2 and" for 2 beats to the measure. You have three movements of the wrist for 2/4 time...down on beat 1 and down up on beat 2. But....for 6/8 time you have six movments of the wrist, down, down, up, down, down, up. Why would you have three movements of the wrist for 2/4 time and 6 movements for 6/8 time? Another way of posing the question.....sometimes the "up" stum counts as a whole beat and sometimes it counts as part of the downstrum. How can that be??? Jeff B

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by samcatluth

I'm stuck on something so bear with me....In a strumming example we have this...for 2/4 time you strum down and count "1 and" then you strum down up and count "2 and" for 2 beats to the measure. You have three movements of the wrist for 2/4 time...down on beat 1 and down up on beat 2. But....for 6/8 time you have six movments of the wrist, down, down, up, down, down, up. Why would you have three movements of the wrist for 2/4 time and 6 movements for 6/8 time? Another way of posing the question.....sometimes the "up" stum counts as a whole beat and sometimes it counts as part of the downstrum. How can that be??? Jeff B

You think too much! Just play!

Usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[rct]

Your strumming is filling the space between 1 and 2, or 2 and 3, etc. It's not that one counts as both in this instance and as only one in the other instance, it is that the context places triplets between down beats as opposed to half notes or rests, and later, lots of other things.

Based on your question there is a lot of music to learn before this becomes intuitive and you can just play it right without thinking about it. Try not to let the minutiae of formal music structure hinder your learning the equally important human body manifestations of that music, that is, just play it as right as you can and let whys and wherefores come later!

rct

[vindibona1]

2/4 and 6/8 meter poses two entirely different challenges.

2/4 would be timed like: Down-DownUp Down-DownUp. Simple "one (return up) two and" with "twoand" being downup.

Think of 6/8 as two 3/8 measures (groups of three beats) grouped into one. So you have to think 1-2-3-1-2-3. So the basic strum would have to account for the extra 8th note (twice) once in each group of three: Down-DownUpDown(and) Down-DownUpDown(and). "and"= an 8th rest. Alternately you could strum Down-DownUpDownUp Down-DownUpDownUp.

Hope that helped.

[mattbn73]

I think it's nearly impossible to "words" this on the Internet without more information. *I* don't understand this conversation, and I play REALLY well in compound meters. This conversation is freely mixing notions of "beat" and "strum pattern with variable rhythms" in a way which is completely confounding. I hate the Internet convention of trying to convey complex rhythm with DU, and this is a big part of why.

Originally Posted by samcatluth

Why would you have three movements of the wrist for 2/4 time and 6 movements for 6/8 time?

Because the "wrist movements" in this case are somewhat arbitrary and separate from the beat. You should understand the difference between "rhythm" and "beat". The beat is constant, and implied by the rhythm. The rhythm changes constantly and is counted in reference TO the beat.

In 2/4, if you strum quarter notes , you're strumming twice per measure. If you strum 8th notes, you're strumming four times per measure, ....and so on for sixteenths, triplets etc. The number of strums is related to a rhythm pattern not a beat pattern.

[LeftArm]

I don't see how you can have two down strokes without having an up wrist movement inbetween.
The wrist movements are:
2/4 = Down Up Down Up | Down Up Down Up|Down Up Down Up
6/8 = Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up |Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up

You can strum on any of the downs or ups.

[fazool]

No. You do not change the up's or down's based upon the timing.

Which strings you are strumming in order (up or down) is unique to the sound and "unrelated" to the timing.

Best advice I ever got

"stop thinking about the strumming pattern and just FEEL the music"

[mattbn73]

Originally Posted by LeftArm

I don't see how you can have two down strokes without having an up wrist movement inbetween.
The wrist movements are:
2/4 = Down Up Down Up | Down Up Down Up|Down Up Down Up
6/8 = Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up |Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up

You can strum on any of the downs or ups.

Post a very partial snippet of whatever you're looking at, and maybe someone can give you some direction. It really is impossible to decipher what you're talking about from information you're providing. At the very least, I think you are equating "strums" with "wrist movement ". Usually, the wrist movement or arm movement is relatively steady , and you "miss " strings on certain parts of the beat to create a strum pattern.

Personally, I'd say get a teacher to learn some fundamentals of counting music . This is not something to be learning from a book or online resource , if you don't know basic counting. My opinion of course.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by LeftArm

I don't see how you can have two down strokes without having an up wrist movement inbetween.
The wrist movements are:
2/4 = Down Up Down Up | Down Up Down Up|Down Up Down Up
6/8 = Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up |Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down Up

You can strum on any of the downs or ups.

The problem with verbal descriptions is that without rhythmic notation you can't describe rests where the hand returns up without striking the strings.

Edit:
Ok... 1000 words is worth a picture. So I just grabbed a guitar and my metronome to illustrate basic strumming patterns in duple (2/4)and triple (6/8) meter. [Sorry, I didn't tune the guitar before playing. Wish I had. It is what it is. Recorded with iPhone.]

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

The problem with verbal descriptions is that without rhythmic notation you can't describe rests where the hand returns up without striking the strings.

Edit:
Ok... 1000 words is worth a picture. So I just grabbed a guitar and my metronome to illustrate basic strumming patterns in duple (2/4)and triple (6/8) meter. [Sorry, I didn't tune the guitar before playing. Wish I had. It is what it is. Recorded with iPhone.]

The "triple meter" you demo'd could be a fast 3/4 or a slow 6/8.

6/8 is not actually a triple meter, it's a "compound duple" meter, meaning 2 beats per bar, the 8th notes counted as "1 and a 3 and a".

However, you're playing downs on every 8th, which is how I'd do it. (Any upstrokes come on the 16ths between.)

Unless the 6/8 was extremely fast, I'd never play the 8ths as DUDUDU - that puts an upstroke on the 2nd beat of the bar, which doesn't feel right at all.
DUDUDU is really a 3/4 pattern: "1 and 2 and 3 and".

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by JonPR

The "triple meter" you demo'd could be a fast 3/4 or a slow 6/8.

6/8 is not actually a triple meter, it's a "compound duple" meter, meaning 2 beats per bar, the 8th notes counted as "1 and a 3 and a".

While 6/8 will feel like it has two distinct beats, that's sometimes the nature of 6/8. But it's handled as two triplets (top illustration). But as we're talking 6/8 time it could very well be written in 3/4 should the song writer choose, the difference often being interpretation and phrasing. 6/8 A "compound duple meter" will sound like two eighth notes broken into three sections (middle illustration). The bottom illustration shows how the 2nd and 5th beats are subdivided, keep the feel of the triplet rhythm x2. Unless you feel the triplets there is no way to subdivide a 6/8 bar into two pulses. The first beat of each triplet pulse could be played slightly accented to emphasize two pulses, it still will retain the triplet feel, nonetheless.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

While 6/8 will feel like it has two distinct beats, that's sometimes the nature of 6/8.

That's always the nature of 6/8.

Originally Posted by vindibona1

But it's handled as two triplets (top illustration).

Right.

Originally Posted by vindibona1

But as we're talking 6/8 time it could very well be written in 3/4 should the song writer choose, the difference often being interpretation and phrasing.

Yes - that is, either meter can have the other as an occasional cross-rhythm - which might be written by beaming the 8ths differently.

The classic example is Bernstein's "America", written in 6/8, but where every other bar has a 3/4 cross-rhythm. Most sheet music copies reflect that in the notation - writing the "3/4" bars as three pairs of 8ths (or three quarters) without changing the time sig.

That's rare however (IME). In that case, the 6/8 is considered primary. If the 3/4 feel were more dominant, then the time sig ought to be 3/4 throughout. Any occasional 6/8 cross-rhythm could be then be indicated as two sets of triplets.

Originally Posted by vindibona1

6/8 A "compound duple meter" will sound like two eighth notes broken into three sections (middle illustration).

"Compound duple meter" means precisely 6/8 as shown in your first example. "Duple" means two beats, and "compound" means the beats divide into triplets.
Your middle example is "simple triple", or 3/4.
https://www.musictheory.net/lessons/15

Originally Posted by vindibona1

The bottom illustration shows how the 2nd and 5th beats are subdivided, keep the feel of the triplet rhythm x2.

Yes.

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Unless you feel the triplets there is no way to subdivide a 6/8 bar into two pulses.

OK, if "pulse" has a different meaning from "beat" (which I think it does). 6/8 is two "beats", but (as I understand the term) six "pulses".

Originally Posted by vindibona1

The first beat of each triplet pulse could be played slightly accented to emphasize two pulses, it still will retain the triplet feel, nonetheless.

Right.