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  #46  
Old 10-19-2014, 04:40 PM
d18 d18 is offline
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Default All about Guitar Modes

Okay, here is my blog post about modes, thanks for all your help...

All about Guitar Modes
http://robertjliguori.blogspot.com/2...tar-modes.html

Anyone have any corrections or information that I can add?

Thanks,
Robert
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  #47  
Old 10-21-2014, 03:56 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by capo_critters View Post
Okay, here is my blog post about modes, thanks for all your help...

All about Guitar Modes
http://robertjliguori.blogspot.com/2...tar-modes.html

Anyone have any corrections or information that I can add?

Thanks,
Robert
Well, seeing as you name-checked me in your explanation, I feel (while being flattered) I can be critical...

You've called it "guitar modes" for a start, which is a bad idea! It risks the very confusion you're trying to deal with. There's nothing guitar-specific about modes.

Another risky thing is linking those 7 patterns with the "key of C". It suggests that the modes have a relevant place within a key-based tune or progression, which they don't.

Thirdly, while your patterns are correct (marking which note is the root in each one), it's not true -and is highly misleading - to suggest that each mode has a specific fret pattern; it doesn't. Any of those patterns can be any mode, just by re-assigning which one is the root.

IOW, you're starting the whole thing from a false premise in the first place. The whole problem with modes - why so many guitarists (not other musicians) have problems understanding them - is the spurious links with (a) keys and (b) fret patterns.

A mode does not have one fret pattern, any more than the major scale does. Any major scale pattern can be used for any mode of that scale.

A mode is a sound produced by a particular scale structure over an established keynote. (And the mood associations you've listed for each mode are good enough, I'd say. A lot of it is subjective, but I agree broadly with your descriptions.)

Modes are not within keys. A major key does not contain 7 modes. A major key is ONE mode in itself (Ionian). (In truth, Ionian mode is subtly different from the major key, but the differences are not important here.)
Modes are a totally different way of making music from major and minor keys.

Your facts are all correct - in that you can derive the various modes from a major scale in that way. But once you've done that, you kiss the major key goodbye! The modes are on their own; that's the whole point of them.

Just as A minor is a different key from C major, so all the other 5 modes of those 7 notes are different things. (When you get an Am chord in key of C major, you don't suddenly think you're in the key of A minor... I hope. )
IOW, the fact that modes are "relative" (share the same 7 notes) doesn't make them belong in one "key". Those 7 notes - scale or pitch collection - may be used with six of notes as individual keynotes; not just chord roots, keynotes. (The one that can't is locrian.)

I.e, it's important to separate the notion of a "scale" (set of 7 notes) from a "key" on the one hand and a "mode" on the other. Essentially, from any set of 7 notes (assuming the diatonic pattern), you get two "keys" and 5 "modes".
The two keys, of course, begin as two modes (Ionian and Aeolian), but (classically) undergo certain treatments, in particular harmonisation into chords, the use of certain common chord sequences, and - in the minor key - common alterations of the 6th and 7th degrees.
In that way, keys (traditionally) behave very differently from modes.

Modes in modern music are even more different from the original medieval modes - and can sometimes behave a little like keys - but the distinction
is still useful.

(One thing you could add to your blog - seeing as you touch on historical origin - is a brief description of the medieval mode system, which ran for (very approximately) 1000 years, from 600-1600. It began as four "authentic" modes: dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian; added four "plagal" variants; and, after Ionian and Aeolian were officially added in the mid-16th century, gradually evolved into the "major-minor key system" we know today; aka "tonality", as opposed to "modality". Chords did not exist in the modal system, and nor did harmony of any kind to begin with. You can find plenty of good data on the medieval system online if you want more.)

I haven't yet watched your video (my old PC currently has an allergic reaction to video ), but I will be interested to learn how modes have helped your guitar playing. They haven't helped mine.
(They've expanded my musical consciousness, and introduced me to other ways of composing music, but they haven't actually helped my playing or my improvisation.)
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  #48  
Old 10-21-2014, 08:07 AM
ameetnsharma ameetnsharma is offline
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Originally Posted by JonPR View Post

Another risky thing is linking those 7 patterns with the "key of C". It suggests that the modes have a relevant place within a key-based tune or progression, which they don't.
They don't?

I don't understand this. If you a piece of music in the key of C, and we're sticking with diatonic chords... Over an F major chord, you can play F lydian... By emphasizing the F note over the F major chord (which is what playing F lydian means in this context) will have a different sound than just playing any of the notes in C major.

It suggests a different way of improvising than chord tones.
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  #49  
Old 10-21-2014, 11:48 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by ameetnsharma View Post
They don't?
Well, it may come down to definitions of terms...
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Originally Posted by ameetnsharma View Post
I don't understand this. If you a piece of music in the key of C, and we're sticking with diatonic chords... Over an F major chord, you can play F lydian... By emphasizing the F note over the F major chord (which is what playing F lydian means in this context)
But that isn't what "F lydian" means. That's just emphasing the root of the IV chord. (Maybe that's a typo, and you meant to say "B note"? )

Two things matter for the description "F lydian" to be appropriate.
1: F has to sound like the keynote, the tonal centre.
2: the notes ABCDEFG (aka "C major scale", any order) need to be the scale used, and the B note is the significant one, the #4 that distinguishes F lydian from F major.

But within the key of C major, F is not the tonal centre - C is - so F lydian is not a relevant term.
You will get an F lydian sound (or a hint of it anyway) for as long as an F chord lasts, but you don't need to emphasise any particular note, just use the scale of the key. But it's rare for an F chord (in key of C major) to last long enough to become a tonal centre in its own right. Usually it just sounds like the IV chord, which is not lydian in any meaningful sense.
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Originally Posted by ameetnsharma View Post
It suggests a different way of improvising than chord tones.
Not really it doesn't.
It's long been a tradition in improvisation to use the scale of the key, with an emphasis on chord tones. IOW, the whole scale, at any time, but founded on chord tones as target notes.

The only difference that modal thinking might make is encourage you to focus on certain non-chord tones that highlight the differences between chords. Eg, to stress the B note on the F (or Dm) chord - to imply (briefly) a "lydian" or "dorian" effect; or stress the F note on the Em chord, to imply a "phrygian" effect.
Modal terms do arguably have a place in that scenario, but it's still not really what modes are about. And modal terms (and thinking) don't offer anything that more traditional terms (and thinking) don't.
You're still in the key of C major - the harmony is functional, not modal. Everything (notes and chords) relates to the C tonic.
Stressing the F note on the Em chord is simply applying a dissonance, the 4th of the scale on the iii chord (iii of C ionian).
IOW, you can call that b2 effect (on the chord) "phrygian" if you like, but it's not really what phrygian mode is about.
For it to be phrygian, you'd need to take the Em chord out of the C progression and make it the tonic, the key chord - and ideally not use any other chords. Then, using the C scale over it (emphasising F) will give a true phrygian sound.
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  #50  
Old 10-21-2014, 01:58 PM
Dalegreen Dalegreen is offline
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I believe the blog post using "C major" as an example to reflect modes is so it does not confuse the reader even more as the Key of C contains no sharps or flats.
Of course modes do stand on their own, but they are all used relative to a particular key you are playing in, or for that matter a "modal key".
I think he provided a good overview and if readers are so inclined they can dive in much deeper to get a better understanding of modes and their applications, and perhaps some clearer definition in some areas. There are many music schools and pro instructors out there who are happy to guide the curios individual thru the application of modes and how they are created.
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  #51  
Old 10-21-2014, 04:20 PM
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Yes, maybe a better way would be by saying, for example, there are seven modes which use the notes found in a C major scale.
But I'm still trying to wrap my head around it all so perhaps not, either. It all seems to depend from which "end" you are looking at it. Anyway, this thread has made it a little clearer in my mind (although perhaps more jumbled, too, if that's possible)
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  #52  
Old 10-21-2014, 04:39 PM
ameetnsharma ameetnsharma is offline
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Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Well, it may come down to definitions of terms...
But that isn't what "F lydian" means. That's just emphasing the root of the IV chord. (Maybe that's a typo, and you meant to say "B note"? )

Two things matter for the description "F lydian" to be appropriate.
1: F has to sound like the keynote, the tonal centre.
2: the notes ABCDEFG (aka "C major scale", any order) need to be the scale used, and the B note is the significant one, the #4 that distinguishes F lydian from F major.

But within the key of C major, F is not the tonal centre - C is - so F lydian is not a relevant term.
You will get an F lydian sound (or a hint of it anyway) for as long as an F chord lasts, but you don't need to emphasise any particular note, just use the scale of the key. But it's rare for an F chord (in key of C major) to last long enough to become a tonal centre in its own right. Usually it just sounds like the IV chord, which is not lydian in any meaningful sense.
The IV chord may last a while depending on the piece of music right? maybe the bridge of a song is all on the IV chord.

I agree with you on condition 2, and emphasizing the B note for lydian.

Relating to condition 1 above... over the F(IV) chord... to emphasize F tonality, don't you think starting and ending phrasing on F makes any difference? As compared to say starting and ending phrases on C?

Last edited by ameetnsharma; 10-21-2014 at 04:54 PM.
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  #53  
Old 10-22-2014, 02:10 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by ameetnsharma View Post
The IV chord may last a while depending on the piece of music right? maybe the bridge of a song is all on the IV chord.
True. It's not common, but it certainly possible.
What is also possible (and maybe a little more common) is a modulation to IV in the bridge: meaning the scale becomes F major for that section.
But it's true that if the key centre feels (sounds) like F, and you use the C major scale, then you have (in the modern sense) F lydian mode. It's not out of the question for that to happen in the middle of a C major composition, but is still uncommon (in my experience).
My argument is really on the basis of common practice. It doesn't rule out exceptions. It's important to understand how music works most of the time, and then to use the most appropriate terminology for those common practices. That helps us explain the exceptions, using other terms.

My other angle on this is that, before the 1960s, no jazz musician had ever heard of modes. They improvised perfectly well on key-based music, with no inhibition, and had all the terminology they needed. Thinking in modes would not have helped them, and they would have regarded it as irrelevant terminology. It would have added nothing to what they knew, or to how they played. They already used all 12 notes, with a proper understanding of tonal hierarchy from moment to moment.
When the "modal jazz" revolution came along (beginning with Milestones and Kind of Blue), then things changed. That's when this notion of "chord-scale theory" began to be developed, to deal with the kind of sequences where every chord might imply a different key, and where there often was - in a real sense - no key at all.
No problem there. New terms are needed to describe new forms of music. The problem comes when those new terms - that new perspective - is applied to older forms of music; music based on major or minor keys - which still exists and is still widely popular. Jazz musicians may not have a problem because they understand the distinction; they would be consciously applying a new perspective to music that they know predates that perspective - because a lot of what jazz is about is rethinking the past, updating it, taking it new places.
But it is a problem - because it causes endless confusion - when those learning and using the terms don't understand that there is a difference. Some music is key-based, some music is modal. Chord-scale theory applies properly to the latter, not to the former.
You can apply it to the former, but (a) it makes improvisation a lot more complicated, and (b) (unless you know what you're doing) it risks destroying its coherence.

However, the situation IS inevitably complicated in practice, because most contemporary music - in rock as well as in jazz - is frequently a mix of both concepts: keys and modes in the same tune. Or rather, a key with a lot of modal influence; or a mode treated as if it's a key.
Even so, it's still good to be aware of the distinction - and it's also true that traditional concepts of improvisation (dating back maybe 100 years or more) will still work in any kind of modern music. We don't need chord-scale theory, even for modal music. (It can help, but is not essential.)

Of course, at the same time, we can't expect old-fashioned key-based (diatonic) theory to apply in modern music (esp rock). Eg, it's silly (or maybe just naïve) to look at a rock song and point out chords that "break the rules" (such as a bVII in a major key). That's just misreading the rules, or not understanding the flexibility of the rules. No good music ever breaks any rules; it just might be following rules you don't yet know about.

In short, my whole purpose here is to call stuff what it is. It's not about saying you "can't" do this, or you "must" do that. We all do what we think sounds good: that's the only rule. This kind of debate is about suggesting what we ought to call those sounds - and ought not to call them - in order to clarify best what's going on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ameetnsharma View Post
Relating to condition 1 above... over the F(IV) chord... to emphasize F tonality, don't you think starting and ending phrasing on F makes any difference? As compared to say starting and ending phrases on C?
Of course, but it isn't a modal difference. The mode is the same regardless of what note you start on, what note you emphasise, or what scale pattern you use.

If you have an F tonic/keynote/tonal centre (not just an F root in a C major progression), and you use the C major scale, "F Lydian" is what results, inevitably. Different emphases, phrasing, target notes, etc, all have different effects, but they're not modal ones.
If you choose to avoid the B entirely, then the mode will simply be ambiguous - could be Ionian or Lydian; in fact we'd probably assume Ionian because that's the more common sound of the two; playing a Bb will confirm that expectation. That's why hitting the B has the noticeable "Lydian" effect.
...

EDIT: btw, check out two of my earlier posts in this thread, #20 and #30 (two years ago!) for some examples of music with clear modal sounds. Mostly the musicians concerned didn't know they were using modes, but we can still use those terms to describe what they did, to help differentiate the sounds from traditional key-based ones.
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Last edited by JonPR; 10-22-2014 at 02:20 AM.
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  #54  
Old 10-22-2014, 07:50 AM
Dalegreen Dalegreen is offline
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Originally Posted by JonPR
in short, my whole purpose here is to call stuff what it is. It's not about saying you "can't" do this, or you "must" do that. We all do what we think sounds good: that's the only rule. This kind of debate is about suggesting what we ought to call those sounds - and ought not to call them - in order to clarify best what's going on.

I think the above paragraph sums it up best. Modes only become confusing when they are not understood or interpreted for what they are
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  #55  
Old 10-22-2014, 08:55 AM
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It would be cool if someone could do a chart of common chord progressions for different modes. I find it reeeaaaally hard to write something using modes. Mostly, I end up using a mode just by accident or "unconscuiously".
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  #56  
Old 10-22-2014, 09:15 AM
ameetnsharma ameetnsharma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
T

Of course, but it isn't a modal difference. The mode is the same regardless of what note you start on, what note you emphasise, or what scale pattern you use.

If you have an F tonic/keynote/tonal centre (not just an F root in a C major progression), and you use the C major scale, "F Lydian" is what results, inevitably. Different emphases, phrasing, target notes, etc, all have different effects, but they're not modal ones.
I guess this is a matter of definition... To me, phrasing emphasizes the mode... meaning I hear the mode clearly when notes are phrased in a particular way... I'd call this a modal difference.

Phrasing plays a role in what my ear decides as the tonic centre... and as a result my ear hears a different tonic, and a different mode. Seems like a definite modal difference to me.

Suppose there are no background chords... just one person on the guitar playing single line notes... he selects from ABCDEFG...

If I play the regular C major scale... I hear an ionian sound.... no background chords or anything... C becomes the tonic centre to my ear because it starts and ends with C.

If I play the F lydian scale... I hear a lydian sound... F becomes the tonic centre to my ear.

Similarly if I select from these notes with phrasing that centers around F, getting that B in there, my ear will pick up on an F tonic, and a lydian sound. There does not need to be any background chords. Phrasing alone can get you the tonic.

If you do add a background chord... F major chord playing repeatedly... and I play a C major single line scale. The lydian is not nearly as apparent to my ear, as compared to playing the F lydian scale... The mode becomes more apparent to my ear when I start on an F...

Last edited by ameetnsharma; 10-22-2014 at 09:20 AM.
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  #57  
Old 10-22-2014, 10:03 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by Yeah View Post
It would be cool if someone could do a chart of common chord progressions for different modes. I find it reeeaaaally hard to write something using modes. Mostly, I end up using a mode just by accident or "unconscuiously".
The trick with all modes is to restrict the number of chords used, and prioritise the main one. You want to aim for a static mood, a vamp, groove or drone, rather than a lot of chord changes.

Here's some typical classics in common keys. Treat each one as a repeating loop, ending finally on first chord.

E Mixolydian
|E - - - |E - D A |
or
|E - D - |A - E - |
or just one E7 chord;
or (for a jazzier feel) an E7sus4 chord (using A major scale for melodies or solos)
(NB: important not to let A sound like the key chord. Always make sure E lasts longer.)

A dorian
|Am7 - D7 - |Am7 - D7 - |
or
|Am7 - - - |D7 - - - |
or
|Am7 - Bm7 - |Am7 - Bm7 - |

E phrygian
|Em7 - - - |Em7 - F - |
or - for jazz phrygian - just one E7sus4b9 chord (Dm6/E)

C lydian
|C - - - |C - D/C - |
or just one Cmaj7#11 chord (Em9/C), or Bm7/C or D/C.

E locrian
Locrian is tonally unstable, but it you want to try it, use an Em7b5 chord (Gm/E) only. No other chord works as a secondary contrasting chord, because they'll all be more consonant, and so will sound like the main modal chord.

A aeolian
|Am - - G|F - - G |

A ionian
|A - - - |D/A - - - |
Of course, A ionian is pretty indistinguishable from the A major key, but you can get that "modal" feel by retaining a pedal bass note, or just restricting the use of any other chords than the tonic.
The above vamp could also fit A mixolydian, so add a maj7 to the A to help nail it.


Lydian and Phrygian are the weakest modes (aside from Locrian), meaning it's hard to use more than one chord without disturbing the modal centre.

Mixolydian and dorian are pretty strong (mainly because they are common and familiar, in rock, folk and jazz), but you still need to be careful to restrain the relative major key tonic chord, if not avoid it altogether.
Eg, you can be playing your Am7-D7 dorian vamp happily for several minutes, but as soon as you throw in a G chord the whole thing will become G major, and the Am7-D7 will appear to have been a ii-V all along, just waiting for that G.

With A Aeolian, the only real difference from the A minor key is that the latter uses E or E7 as V, while A aeolian will stick with Em (or G). So you can use as many chords from the mode as you like, it will still have an "Aeolian vibe" if you just avoid that harmonic minor alteration (G# note). Still, restricting the use of the C chord is important, because C ionian is a stronger mode of those notes.
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  #58  
Old 10-22-2014, 10:27 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by ameetnsharma View Post
I guess this is a matter of definition... To me, phrasing emphasizes the mode... meaning I hear the mode clearly when notes are phrased in a particular way... I'd call this a modal difference.
Yes, but it depends on context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ameetnsharma View Post
Phrasing plays a role in what my ear decides as the tonic centre... and as a result my ear hears a different tonic, and a different mode. Seems like a definite modal difference to me.
Sure, but if you have a chord sequence in a key, then there is only one tonic, regardless of what chord you're on. You shouldn't be hearing other notes as tonics, although of course you will hear their individual root qualities.
And, if one chord does last a while, then yes you will certainly hear that chord's modal quality - the longer it lasts, the more it will tend to establish itself as a new tonal centre.
But phrasing makes little difference to that, unless you're going for those "modal identifiers", such as the lydian #4, or the dorian major 6, or whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ameetnsharma View Post
Suppose there are no background chords... just one person on the guitar playing single line notes... he selects from ABCDEFG...

If I play the regular C major scale... I hear an ionian sound.... no background chords or anything... C becomes the tonic centre to my ear because it starts and ends with C.

If I play the F lydian scale... I hear a lydian sound... F becomes the tonic centre to my ear.
Sure. Because now you have no background context, and are establishing the tonal centre yourself.

But there's still a useful distinction here. Playing the C major scale at random - ie the notes ABCDEFG in any order - you should find that C has the most "gravitational pull", the one with most apparent claim to tonal centre; because of the cultural familiarity we all have with "do re mi fa so la ti do". That's the most familiar use of those 7 notes.
In order to make a different note sound like the centre, then yes you do need to emphasise it more.
With no background chord(s), therefore, then yes you need to stress the F more to get an F lydian sound from those 7 notes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ameetnsharma View Post
Similarly if I select from these notes with phrasing that centers around F, getting that B in there, my ear will pick up on an F tonic, and a lydian sound. There does not need to be any background chords. Phrasing alone can get you the tonic.
I agree. But that's a somewhat unnatural scenario.

In most discussions about modes and their usefulness, the assumed context is chord sequences, in given songs or tunes. People want to be able to improvise on any song they might encounter, and it's often suggested or implied (wrongly or mistakenly IMO) that modes are a solution, a strategy.
That's a common misapprehension, at least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ameetnsharma View Post
If you do add a background chord... F major chord playing repeatedly... and I play a C major single line scale. The lydian is not nearly as apparent to my ear, as compared to playing the F lydian scale... The mode becomes more apparent to my ear when I start on an F...
Again, I agree. Given the single F chord and the C major scale, it sounds lydian anyway without an emphasis on the F, but more so if you stress the F.

But again, that's a rare scenario in the real world.

IOW, it's important to distinguish the idea of one chord jamming - experimentation with modes during practice in order to understand how they work - and the real world application of modes in actual music.
Of course, one can write one's own modal music [see above ], to define one's terms, but in tackling other compositions what matters is to understand (and exploit) the given material, in whatever form it's presented.
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Old 10-22-2014, 11:44 AM
Dalegreen Dalegreen is offline
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if anyone is interested, send me an email via my website and I will send you a three page PDF folder including a "modal chord formation chart" from my book. Very straight forward, it shows you chord changes within the context of a specific modal scale.
So as you play in your "mode", your chord changes reflect the tonal qualities of the mode.
Also includes a modal scale exercise chart, the above modal chord formation chart, and a page of (6) modal chord progressions (8 bars each) with the indicated mode to use over each. You can just loop the chord changes or jam with a friend. The book does have backing tracks, but you can easily make your own if you have a looper or other recording devise.

Last edited by Dalegreen; 10-22-2014 at 12:05 PM.
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  #60  
Old 10-24-2014, 09:38 AM
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I RECOMMEND DALEGREEN pdfs, I also think modes are, anyway, to "quirky" for me. I find it really hard to spontaneously start composing in modes, without having to force it.
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