How many fundamental chord shapes are there?

[MC5C]

I have been thinking about this for a few minutes, based on trying to simplify my understanding of the fretboard and pull out lowest common denominators for chord development. I looked at the common open position major chords A, C, D, E and G. I think that's all there are for major chords, in true open position. Of those, I felt that the E chord shape was unique, no other open chord derived from it. I felt that C and D were the same shape, root on the second string, D just moved up two frets from C . You can create a closed shape of open C and move it up and down the neck easily. In the same way I felt that A was the same shape as G, just moved up two frets. I often play a closed shape of G (including the major 7 and the dominant 7) on the upper four strings, for example C major in fifth position, barre at the fifth fret and C at the 8th fret. So I came to the conclusion that on the guitar, there are really only three chord shapes that all other variations derive from. Am I late to the game, on to something worth exploring, or out to lunch? It's a lot easier to learn three chords than a million chords, after all...

As a coda to that thought, I am working on improving my understanding of the fretboard. The end goal is to regard chords that I play as groups of individual notes, not as shapes. My progress is in understanding the relationship between a diminished chord, and it's cousin the minor 7 flat 5, and so on. How a 7 flat 9 chord enhances a typical II-IV-I sequence. In that light I am finding relationships between shapes of chords that I have completely overlooked for the past 4 decades...

[stanron]

The 'CAGED' system is a series of extrapolations from the five open major chord shapes, and also what happens when they are moved around the neck.

Of course each of these has a minor variation and a whole load of numbered variations, but if you have the five shapes linked in your head you have a good basis to work from.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by MC5C

I have been thinking about this for a few minutes, based on trying to simplify my understanding of the fretboard and pull out lowest common denominators for chord development. I looked at the common open position major chords A, C, D, E and G. I think that's all there are for major chords, in true open position. Of those, I felt that the E chord shape was unique, no other open chord derived from it. I felt that C and D were the same shape, root on the second string, D just moved up two frets from C . You can create a closed shape of open C and move it up and down the neck easily. In the same way I felt that A was the same shape as G, just moved up two frets. I often play a closed shape of G (including the major 7 and the dominant 7) on the upper four strings, for example C major in fifth position, barre at the fifth fret and C at the 8th fret. So I came to the conclusion that on the guitar, there are really only three chord shapes that all other variations derive from. Am I late to the game, on to something worth exploring, or out to lunch? It's a lot easier to learn three chords than a million chords, after all...

Good observation. But of course trhe E shape moved up 1 fret becomes an F chord....

IOW, as stanron points, all 5 open shapes are movable (filling in open strings with barres), and it's a well-known phenomenon known as the CAGED system, because that's the order the shapes move up the neck (to make the same chord). E.g., you get a C chord from all these shapes:
Open position = C shape
3rd fret = A shape
5th fret = G shape
8th fret = E shape
10th fret = D shape
12th fret = C shape again

An F chord is made from the same shapes in these 5 positions:
1st fret = E shape
3rd fret = D shape
5th fret = C shape
8th fret = A shape
10th fret = G shape
13th fret = E shape again

Etc. Same principle for all 12 major chords. (The fret number given is the index finger fret, usually for a barre (full or partial).)

The minors are a little trickier because there are only 3 open beginner shapes (Em, Am, Dm). There is no easy open position option for Cm or Gm chords - at least not using all the strings. So while minor shapes run up the neck in the same order, the Cm and Gm positions are partial.

Originally Posted by MC5C

As a coda to that thought, I am working on improving my understanding of the fretboard. The end goal is to regard chords that I play as groups of individual notes, not as shapes.

Good plan!
There is of course only one type of major chord. It's just that the irregular standard tuning of the guitar means that the chord form falls into different shapes depending on how the notes are distributed across the neck. (If you were to study the symmetrical 4ths tuning system, EADGCF, you'd see the same shape for major chords occurring everywhere. Not 5 "CAGED" shapes, but one shape moving across and up the neck for different chords. NB: this is not a recommendation to switch to EAGBCF!)

Originally Posted by MC5C

My progress is in understanding the relationship between a diminished chord, and it's cousin the minor 7 flat 5, and so on. How a 7 flat 9 chord enhances a typical II-IV-I sequence. In that light I am finding relationships between shapes of chords that I have completely overlooked for the past 4 decades...

All good.
The way jazz sees chord types (in case it helps) is as three basic triads: maj, min, dim - each of which can have two kinds of 7th:

maj + minor 7th = 7 (dom7) = V in major or minor key
maj + major 7th = maj7 = I or IV in major key, III or VI in minor key
min + minor 7th = m7 = ii, vi or iii in major key, iv in minor key
min + major 7th = m(maj7) = i in minor key
dim + minor 7th = m7b5 = ii in minor key (technically vii in major key, but rarely used as such)
dim + diminished 7th = dim7 = vii in minor key, commonly borrowed for vii in major key

Naturally, there are extensions and variants - particularly (1) the various kinds of altered dominants, used mostly in minor keys; (2) 6 and m6 chords, common alternatives for maj7 tonic chords; and (3) two other applications for dim7s.
But in traditional jazz functional harmony, all chords can be reduced to one of the above six types, which cover all 7 functions in major and minor keys. (Substitutes and borrowed chords are a more advanced level, but most can still be seem to derive from those six.)

The aug triad is not considered as basic, but does occur as part of some altered dominants.

The sus4 triad is basic in modal jazz harmony, and would always have a minor 7th added (not a maj7). (9 or b9 might be added, as might a 13.)

[rick-slo]

I think of the basic major and minor chords and their sevenths mostly in terms of progressions. When using other extended chords I start thinking more in terms of creating melody lines and employing note leading (mainly by ear naturally).

[MC5C]

I think the difference between what I have been thinking and the CAGED system (which I learned, absorbed and discarded many years ago) is that I see only three shapes, not five. I see the A and G shapes as the same, and C and D shapes as the same. The only one that is unique is the E shape - the F derivative is not an open position chord.

One reason I am thinking about this is the ukulele lesson I taught last week. I taught years ago when I was in high school, but haven't since and so don't have a set lesson plan, so to speak. I'm trying to explain things that make it all as simple as possible. I was saying if you learn the names of the notes on the strings, and you learn the chord shapes, you will find it easier to learn the chords you need to play your songs. "What do you mean", she said. I said "you know the F chord (C shape on a guitar) and you know the D chord. If you look at it, they are the same chord shape, just slid up two frets. Same with the C chord (guitar G shape) and the D chord. Same chord, slid up two frets. If you know what note on what string "names" the chord, all of a sudden you know all the chords". I guess next week I'll see if that concept helps or not.

[TBman]

The only thing about CAGED is that the C shape and the D shape are really the same shape, with the C shape being more extended.

If you look at this page and scroll down, you'll see what I mean.

http://www.premierguitar.com/article...e-caged-system

[stanron]

Thought is free, and arguably better than no thought, but for me the difference between adjacent shapes in CAGED lies in where scalar notes are found. In the A and G shapes there is a common root on the third string. In the G shape scale notes are above the root. In the A shape the scale notes are mainly below the root. The same distinction can be made between the C and D shapes.

Similarly, the choice of notes to fit chords IV an V will differ according to which shape you are thinking of.

[MC5C]

Keep in mind that in the context of my question we are talking about major open chords. The position of the notes in the scale in the CAGED shape is interesting, but I'm trying to work through how a new player would best learn and understand very basic chords. I've been playing for decades and never stopped to consider this oh-so-simple point, that there really are just three fundamental open major chord shapes, and it surprised me. I honestly would have sworn there are more, but I can't think of any.

[donh]

Originally Posted by MC5C

I think the difference between what I have been thinking and the CAGED system (which I learned, absorbed and discarded many years ago) is that I see only three shapes, not five. I see the A and G shapes as the same, and C and D shapes as the same. The only one that is unique is the E shape - the F derivative is not an open position chord.

This.

An understand that there are three places to play each chord (or it's derivative) in any octave and you are good to go.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by MC5C

Keep in mind that in the context of my question we are talking about major open chords. The position of the notes in the scale in the CAGED shape is interesting, but I'm trying to work through how a new player would best learn and understand very basic chords. I've been playing for decades and never stopped to consider this oh-so-simple point, that there really are just three fundamental open major chord shapes, and it surprised me.

But I don't follow that argument.
I see the resemblances you mention: the 3 strings in common between A and G and the 3 strings in common between C and D are visually plain (and musically relevant). But you could equally look at strings 6-2-1 for the 4-finger G shape (3-2-0-0-3-3) and see the resemblance to the E shape (3-5-5-4-3-3). Or you could see the resemblance between strings 6-5-4 of the G shape and strings 5-4-3 of the C shape. (And strings 6-5-4 of the 6-string C/G shape, 3-3-2-0-1-0, and strings 5-4-3 of the E shape.)
IOW, there are instructive parallels between all 5 shapes that are important to see. (Likewise the differences between major and minor shapes on the same root.)
Equally important is to appreciate that differences between the shapes (where they cross strings 3-2) are deceptive, because the tuning of the guitar conceals the fact that these are all the same chord type.

[rick-slo]

Five first position open major chord shapes (CAGED) - not counting various extended chords. Of those full shapes what is functionally doable (ergo useful) up the neck in descending order are E, A, D, C, and G.

Might as well have movable minor chords as keys have them. In order of usefulness, Am King, Em Queen, Dm Duke, the rest poor relations.

Might as well memorize various inversions that have set patterns going up the neck, for example A triad inversions: x-x-2-2-2-x to x-x-7-6-5-x to x-x-11-9-10-x to x-x-14-14-14-x

and etc.

[stanron]

Originally Posted by MC5C

I'm trying to work through how a new player would best learn and understand very basic chords. I've been playing for decades and never stopped to consider this oh-so-simple point, that there really are just three fundamental open major chord shapes, and it surprised me. I honestly would have sworn there are more, but I can't think of any.

At the level where a student is learning basic open chords there is little, if any, need for theory. You show them chords, you show them stuff to play using those chords and that should be enough to keep them entranced.

Weren't we all in a thread on this recently?

If the student has competence with another instrument and some theory knowlege then the idea could have some merit. Perhaps it would be more useful to show how different types of thirds and fifths can be found on the fretboard, taking into consideration the 3rd to 2nd string tuning anomaly pointed out by Jon PR. But then it could all become a bit too complicated for someone who is learning basic open chords.

Perhaps if you give the student enough time he/she will start to notice this kind of stuff for his or herself.

[LeftArm]

Just to add my own ramblings to the pot.
The reason there are five shapes and not 3 is that the roots are different in each one. Four of the 5 chord shapes has a root on an open string. The C shape is only different because of the odd way the guitar is tuned. If it was tuned with 4ths between all the strings the B string would be a C.
So the difference between the C shape and the D shape is that the D has its roots on the fourth string and second string but the C has its low root on the fifth string.
Or put another way. Each of the CAGED chords has two root notes and they are on different strings in each one.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by LeftArm

Just to add my own ramblings to the pot.
The reason there are five shapes and not 3 is that the roots are different in each one. Four of the 5 chord shapes has a root on an open string. The C shape is only different because of the odd way the guitar is tuned. If it was tuned with 4ths between all the strings the B string would be a C.
So the difference between the C shape and the D shape is that the D has its roots on the fourth string and second string but the C has its low root on the fifth string.
Or put another way. Each of the CAGED chords has two root notes and they are on different strings in each one.

Yes, but there's still another way of seeing that!
As I see it, two shapes have 6th string roots (E, G) and two have 5th string roots (A, C), with D having a 4th string root.
In terms of numbers of root notes in each chord, OTOH, E and G both have three root notes in the shape, while A, C and D shapes have two.

IOW, there are all kinds of parallels and relationships between these shapes, any or all of which may be useful in helping to understand how they work, and in learning the fretboard.