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Old 12-16-2015, 11:35 AM
H2O H2O is offline
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Default K&K Meridian Pro

Good morning,

I am new to amplification and looking to begin doing some open mics/playing out next year. I would like to have a non-permanent pickup system and do not want to make alterations to my guitars. I came across the K&K Meridian:



It seems ideal for my situation and would allow me to swap between instruments fairly easily. Does anyone have experience with this system that would mind giving some feedback? Also are there any alternatives that I should be looking into?

Thanks
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Old 12-16-2015, 12:28 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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There is a lot of discussion along these lines. The best thing to do is google as well as using the search here. Doug Young did reviews which are on Youtube. As to alternatives, I know of two. One is the Audio Technica AT-831b (cheaper than the Meridian) and the DPA-4099g (more expensive than the Meridian).

I have the AT-831b, and just purchased the DPA-4099g from Sweetwater. It is supposed to arrive tomorrow.

The main issue with using a real mic instead of a pickup is feedback. There will be a limit to how loud you can have the amp or PA before feedback becomes an issue. Placement of the mic relative to the amp or PA speakers is critical, as the placing the mic on the guitar. I have played out solo with the AT-831b and found that if I sit behind my amp, with the amp facing the audience, that seemed to give me the most volume before feeding back. My amp is the AER Compact 60/2, which is small and therefore easy to put where needed.

The typical suggestion is to use this type of guitar mic in conjunction with a pickup. However, like you, I don't want to carve up my guitar to do that. My guitar does not even have an end pin, and I have no intention of drilling into it to install one. I fully intend to just use the guitar mic.

I think it was a post from Doug Young who suggested that if you can play using a mic on a mic stand without feedback being an issue, then using one of these mics should work for you. I googled and read so many posts in various forums about this (the information really is out there to be found), that I can't really remember exactly who posted what. I have never been a fan of loud music, so for me, having the volume just loud enough for a quiet audience to hear is exactly where I want to be. Playing with other instruments or a band might be difficult to do while avoiding feedback.

The DPA-4099g is hypercardoid. Again, I had to google to find out what that means. Essentially, the mic should be about as resistant to feedback as a mic can be, since it should reject sound from the sides, though its pattern does include sound to a lesser extent from the rear. When Doug Young reviewed this mic, and then again in forum discussions, he was quite cautious about the possibility of feedback. On the other hand, I read posts from other performers using it effectively. There are a lot of factors involved so that one really needs to try it and experiment.

Since I had my sights set on the DPA-4099g (arguably the best of this kind of mic), I really did not dig into the Meridian system. I do know that you need to use it with its own box (probably best to get the Meridian Pro for the more flexible EQ), which the DPA-4099g can just plug directly into my AER's mic channel and use its phantom power - no extra boxes and wires or batteries. The AT-831b clips onto the sound hole and lays on the top of the guitar at the sound hole. It is quite small, so it is not really intrusive. The Meridan's mic, as well as the DPA-4099g stand above the guitar top and point down on it. That should be superior overall to the AT-831b, I would think.

Tony
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Old 12-16-2015, 12:44 PM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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I have the K&K Meridian and it is very good. I found I could not use it at church given the feedback, we have wedge monitors out front. As good as it is I find I don't use it, the K&K Trinty with mic inside the guitar is just more workable. It just doesn't feed back in my setting.
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Old 12-16-2015, 01:38 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doubleneck View Post
I have the K&K Meridian and it is very good. I found I could not use it at church given the feedback, we have wedge monitors out front. As good as it is I find I don't use it, the K&K Trinty with mic inside the guitar is just more workable. It just doesn't feed back in my setting.
I hope you found this out soon enough to return it.

Tony
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:03 PM
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Thanks, you've given me a lot to consider. I had read a bit about the feedback issue though I don't have enough experience to say whether it could be a problem for me.

That being said, I also have been looking into the LR Bagg M1 and just letting the cord hang out the front. Apparently the passive version is quite feedback resistant. The downside to that kind of set up would be the cord potentially getting in the way and it would be difficult to swap out meaning I might need multiple pickups for different guitars.
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Old 12-17-2015, 03:28 AM
Andy Howell Andy Howell is offline
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I know the DPA but the same is probably true for the Meridian.

Feedback is an issue. You really need to be blending the signal with an under saddle or other pickup system. Often you will find yourself taking the majority of the signal form the pickup and using the mic to 'open up' the sound — you won't get the sound of your guitar but it will sound more natural the more mic you can get into the mix.

You would also be advised to get hold of a preamp that can blend mic and pick-up and which also includes a notch filter. A good notch filter will enable to isolate feedback a little. In other words use the notch and you will be able to raise the mic in the mix a little. I say a little because where feedback is a problem the notch isn't a cure all but it helps.

I wouldn't use a mic like this on its own unless I really knew the venue, amp or PA really well. I think you really need to be able to setup in advance. My approach to this would be:

Raise the mic until it feedback. Lower gain a little. Isolate feedback with the notch. Bring in pickup to fill in signal. Watch the gain level on the mic.

The same approach would work with a stand alone mic, which might be a better option than the clip on if you don't move around a lot.

I don't really understand why some rooms are more prone to feedback than others, well at least I can't predict it. I also have an AER which is easy to change position but that is not an option with many PA systems!

If all of this sounds a bit complicated then use a pickup !!!

If you are predominantly recording or working at home then you will be OK but you might as well use a conventional mic!
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Old 12-17-2015, 06:32 AM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
I hope you found this out soon enough to return it.

Tony
No I bought it used and still have it. Need to gather some of my experiments and spend a week putting them on eBay. This mic could still be useful in the future.
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Old 12-17-2015, 06:57 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doubleneck View Post
No I bought it used and still have it. Need to gather some of my experiments and spend a week putting them on eBay. This mic could still be useful in the future.
For playing solo (i.e. without having speakers aimed back toward you and where you control the placement of any amplification) or recording in a home/studio situation, I would think it would work well. If I were playing in a situation other than just me with my AER or home/studio recording, I would probably pick some other means of amplification or not use the instrument that I would not want a pickup installed in.

From what I had read around the net, it sounded to me as if the Meridian was more susceptible to feedback than the DAP-4099g. I don't recall seeing any discussion of the Meridian's pickup pattern, but there was quite a bit of detail to be found about that of the DPA-4099g. However, I doubt the DPA-4099g would fare any better in the situation you are playing in. In that situation, I think some sort of pickup would fare better, whether K & K, UST, or sound hole pickup of some kind, and if the Meridian were to be used, it would be in conjunction with one of these so it could be used just to give some body to the pickup's sound well below the level causing feedback.


Tony
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Old 12-17-2015, 08:40 AM
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I saw I'm With Her play live a couple of weeks ago and it looked lie Aoife O'Donovan was using the Meridian system on her vintage Martin 0-17. (I know she has a K&K Pure Mini in it as well but that was not plugged in - she was just using the microphone).

IMO it sounded fantastic. Clear and full and not a hint of feedback. It wasn't a terribly loud show - usually just the 3 ladies and their instruments and voices, although a 6 piece strings and winds section did join them for a couple of songs - so I can't comment on how it would do with a loud band. But for what it was it sounded awesome and blended perfectly with the banjo and fiddle and mandolin.

-Mike
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Old 12-17-2015, 09:36 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by Mobilemike View Post
I saw I'm With Her play live a couple of weeks ago and it looked lie Aoife O'Donovan was using the Meridian system on her vintage Martin 0-17. (I know she has a K&K Pure Mini in it as well but that was not plugged in - she was just using the microphone).

IMO it sounded fantastic. Clear and full and not a hint of feedback. It wasn't a terribly loud show - usually just the 3 ladies and their instruments and voices, although a 6 piece strings and winds section did join them for a couple of songs - so I can't comment on how it would do with a loud band. But for what it was it sounded awesome and blended perfectly with the banjo and fiddle and mandolin.

-Mike
Good to know. With regard to feedback, I suspect that speaker/monitor positioning for these musicians would have taken into account the fact that instrument mics were being used. Since Steve plays in an environment in which wedge monitors are aimed back at him, along with other musicians being involved, his use of the Meridian as the sole amplification for his guitar would most likely result in feedback. Also, if whoever is handling the sound is not familiar with EQ'ing to minimize feedback, that would add to Steve's problems.

I read somewhere in one of the other forums on the net that there are other acoustic-based groups including guitar, mandolin, and fiddle who are successfully using the DPA-4099g exclusively. I would think the Meridian would work just as well in that same environment, given the same attention on the part of the sound person and speaker placement.

Tony
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Old 12-17-2015, 01:10 PM
Mobilemike Mobilemike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
Good to know. With regard to feedback, I suspect that speaker/monitor positioning for these musicians would have taken into account the fact that instrument mics were being used. Since Steve plays in an environment in which wedge monitors are aimed back at him, along with other musicians being involved, his use of the Meridian as the sole amplification for his guitar would most likely result in feedback. Also, if whoever is handling the sound is not familiar with EQ'ing to minimize feedback, that would add to Steve's problems.

I read somewhere in one of the other forums on the net that there are other acoustic-based groups including guitar, mandolin, and fiddle who are successfully using the DPA-4099g exclusively. I would think the Meridian would work just as well in that same environment, given the same attention on the part of the sound person and speaker placement.

Tony
All very true, especially having a sound engineer who is familiar with EQ'ing acoustic instrument mics.

The ladies did have large wedge monitors on stage, but they were not turned up very loud - I was standing right at the edge of the stage and couldn't hear the sound coming from the monitors.

In a louder stage situation this would likely be different.

-Mike
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Old 12-17-2015, 09:26 PM
lweb10 lweb10 is offline
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I have the Meridian Pro. It's good but it IS a microphone and can be a feedback challenge. It has worked best for me in controlled situations, either with a low volume level or with a good sound tech. For your situation, especially the open mics, I would expect it to be too much trouble . . . it might take most of the time you have (or even more than you have) at an open mic just to get the sound right. On the other hand, the M1 is my first choice for "plug it in and play" situations. I've never had a feedback problem with it, never had a sound tech make it sound bad and it often sounds surprisingly acoustic even with very little effort. It has the added benefit of having adjustable pole pieces so you can balance the output between the strings. Mine is installed with the end pin jack and has been trouble free. My favorite piece of gear for playing in public.
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Old 12-18-2015, 05:26 AM
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I've been looking seriously into clip on mics - and without actually having tried any - I've got my eye on a myers feather. I considered the meridian but on paper at least, I favour this one. I even sent off some queries via email and the response was extremely prompt and helpful. I'd be curious if anyone has had any experience with these.

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Old 12-18-2015, 07:02 AM
Andy Howell Andy Howell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdq View Post
I've been looking seriously into clip on mics - and without actually having tried any - I've got my eye on a myers feather. I considered the meridian but on paper at least, I favour this one. I even sent off some queries via email and the response was extremely prompt and helpful. I'd be curious if anyone has had any experience with these.

LINK
Only the DPA but I guess the experience is similar. You do have to watch monitor/amp positioning as has been said. This may well be a deal breaker in some situations. I would never rely on it as a sole amplification source when playing live.
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Old 12-18-2015, 10:48 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdq View Post
I've been looking seriously into clip on mics - and without actually having tried any - I've got my eye on a myers feather. I considered the meridian but on paper at least, I favour this one. I even sent off some queries via email and the response was extremely prompt and helpful. I'd be curious if anyone has had any experience with these.

LINK
Since my DPA-4099g arrived yesterday, I now have both a clip-on mic )Audio Technica AT-831b) and the DPA-4099g, which is a mic that temporarily mounts to the body of the guitar.

Personally, I feel that the DPA-4099g sounds better because it is more like a mic on a stand in that it is above the guitar top, pointing down to it and with its gooseneck, you can move the mic around to where it sounds best, such as the same spot you would point a mic if it were on a stand.

The AT-831b has a clip with some soft material on the inside of the clip to not scratch the guitar. It lips to the sound hole and lays on the top of the guitar. It sounds fine, but just not as good as the DPA-4099g.

Also, I seem to be able to get more volume before feedback from the DPA-4099g. There could be several reasons for this, including the polar pattern of the mic and the fact that I can move it around for best sound and minimum feedback. The advantage with the DPA-4099g is that once I find that sweet spot, the mic stays in that spot relative to the guitar if I move around since it is directly mounted on the guitar.

There is quite a price difference between the two, with the AT-831b at $199 and the DPA-4099g at $619. I intend to keep both. The AT-831b is much simpler, since it just clips on and off, while the DPA-4099g requires some assembly before attaching to the guitar.

It will be interesting to hear about the Myers Feather, so maybe this thread can be used to compare notes on various guitar mic products, which would be helpful to anybody looking to go that route. I personally think a mic sounds better than a pickup, so the extra hassle is (to me) worth it in the end. Also, I don't have to drill or carve up my guitar to use these mics. For those of us with handmade guitars that don't have an end pin, this will most likely be an issue.

One other point I feel the need to mention is that we, as players, are really responsible for a successful performance. Just as we need to practice playing guitar, we also need to practice successfully mic'ing our guitars. We need to experiment with amp/speaker placement and any EQ'ing so we can work with whoever runs sound, or become quickly handy playing solo with just our amp.

One of the nice things about my AER Compact 60 is that it is small without sacrificing sound or volume, and can therefore be put where ever works best to avoid feedback. That is certainly something to consider when selecting an amp for this purpose. These days, they all seem to sound good, so other factors can now become the deciding element, such as size and weight.

Also, the AER does provide phantom power, so all I need to do is plug the mic directly into the mic channel - no extra wires, batteries, or boxes with the DPA-4099g. It really is a small, very high quality, mic that is customized for the purpose of amplifying instruments. The AT-831b does have a little box that runs on a battery.

Tony
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