Become a smooth finger style player

[reeve21]

I follow a process something like that but seeing it in writing is great reminder.

I used a metronome a lot to work on strumming and flat picking, and I know it works. Of course it is a bit discouraging at first to see how off your timing really is! Right now it seems like just one more complication as I try to learn the new right hand technique--but I will give it a go!

Wooly, I'm sorry for highjacking your thread and replying as though I am the OP. You really did read my mind when you started this

Thanks, Amy.

[Wooly]

Originally Posted by reeve21

Wooly, I'm sorry for highjacking your thread and replying as though I am the OP. You really did read my mind when you started this

No problem. I just appreciate all the input. I'm going to start to try and clean up my act. I will look at suggested Mark Hanson books also. Like I stated earlier, it was recording myself that really opened my eyes.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by amyFB

here's how I get through learning the tricky bits and then stitching them into the rest of the piece.

1. isolate the tricky bit and practice it over and over with a metronome until you have it down cold.;(start slow and don't speed up until it's played correctly).
2. add one measure before the tricky bit and practice the two stitched together bits until you can get into the tricky bit with no bumps. (don't forget the metronome)
3. add the measure following the tricky bit. practice the three stitched together bits until it all flows. (you still need the metronome)
4. play the whole song now.(the metronome is always your friend)

good luck!

Exactly right! It's a linear process. That's how learning works: stitching each small element to the next.

It's a familiar experience that one can't remember the middle part of a tune from scratch, and it only comes back if we play from the start and lead up to it - as if the memory has to reel out in a line, each part pulling the following one out. (With lyrics, you find a forgotten second line will come back when you sing the first line.)

It's always struck me when teaching kids that when they make a mistake, they don't want to go over that bit again, or just go back a bar or two; they always want to go back to the beginning and start again. They haven't been told to do that, so it seems like a natural, intuitive process, and going back to the beginning (while more time-consuming) is helping embed the whole thing. The brain has to form a continuous chain of events. The kids don't want to practise one small element over and over because they think (subconsciously) they might lose that connection with what came before. Bar 10 (say) simply doesn't make sense (in the learning brain) except as a continuation of bars 1-9.

As adults, of course, we appreciate the advantages of isolating the tricky elements to focus just on those. But it's crucial to forge the links with the rest of the chain.

[Seby]

Heya Wooly,

I am going to rock the boat a bit here and offer some advice that is contrary to much of the above : )

*ducks and runs for cover*

(1) Do not use a metronome.

(2) Do not use a book.

Instead,

(3) Go to the Alan Lomax Archive channel on youtube and play along with some guys who know what they are doing.

(4) Go out dancing by yourself.

I'll address these in reverse order. Dancing is important because a natural sense of rhythm is something that one learns with one's whole body. If you cannot move your hips and legs and whole body in synch with music that you can hear over a sound system, how on Earth will you move your fingers in synch to music that you are hearing in your head? That is the trick, learning to actually hear the music in your head and letting it move your fingers along with it. Find a club that does a good minimal/mechanical techno night and get down. Any rhythm-heavy music will do.

The Alan Lomax Archive channel is a goldmine of impossibly funky music. I am not suggesting that you adopt a rustic blues persona, wear a costume, and change your name to Wooly "Speedfingers" Smith or anything. That is not the point here. But you will learn more from listening to, and playing along with some of these guys than you will by doing just about anything else.

As for books, they are unlikely to help you. Remember what Mr Miyagi's reaction was when he saw that Daniel was trying to learn karate from a book! Same thing with guitar. You learn both from moving and listening, not by reading.

A metronome will teach you to play like you have been edited through protools. The result will be mechanically perfect from the point of view of a clock or sequencer, but largely unmoving from an emotional standpoint.

Swing

Here is Benton, tune down and dig in deeply:

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Seby

This particular example might actually be a case for a metronome, though he did slightly increase tempo gradually during the piece.

An example I would give about letting the music live rather than be robotic would be along the line of this recording:
'

http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Mu...yBillEvans.mp3
'
'

[SprintBob]

My teacher has a very good piece of advice in that when you play a solo fingerstyle piece, you have to think of your guitar as being the singer, the center of the presentation. So the same feelings and dynamics a singer can present you have to create with your playing. Easier said than done!

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by Seby

Heya Wooly,

I am going to rock the boat a bit here and offer some advice that is contrary to much of the above : )

*ducks and runs for cover*

(1) Do not use a metronome.

(2) Do not use a book.

Instead,

(3) Go to the Alan Lomax Archive channel on youtube and play along with some guys who know what they are doing.

(4) Go out dancing by yourself.

I'll address these in reverse order. Dancing is important because a natural sense of rhythm is something that one learns with one's whole body. If you cannot move your hips and legs and whole body in synch with music that you can hear over a sound system, how on Earth will you move your fingers in synch to music that you are hearing in your head? That is the trick, learning to actually hear the music in your head and letting it move your fingers along with it. Find a club that does a good minimal/mechanical techno night and get down. Any rhythm-heavy music will do.

The Alan Lomax Archive channel is a goldmine of impossibly funky music. I am not suggesting that you adopt a rustic blues persona, wear a costume, and change your name to Wooly "Speedfingers" Smith or anything. That is not the point here. But you will learn more from listening to, and playing along with some of these guys than you will by doing just about anything else.

As for books, they are unlikely to help you. Remember what Mr Miyagi's reaction was when he saw that Daniel was trying to learn karate from a book! Same thing with guitar. You learn both from moving and listening, not by reading.

A metronome will teach you to play like you have been edited through protools. The result will be mechanically perfect from the point of view of a clock or sequencer, but largely unmoving from an emotional standpoint.

Swing

I could not agree more. To play fingerstyle smoothly, you must find the fundamental underlying rhythm of the tune. All the old guys had that rhythm. Find that first and fancy fingerings second.

[Wooly]

Seby. I like your approach. That's interesting. I had never thought of doing it that way but it does make sense. I'm open to all ideas however I can't see myself patronizing a techno dance clubbut I get the idea. Maybe tapping my foot on something while I play like your player in the video is doing. Thanks.

I ordered the Travis books as per previous suggestions. If they don't help, they won't hurt. I got the go ahead to take some lessons. There is a hot shot player in town that gives lessons. Many have recommended him. I don't think he does fingerstyle but I'm going to check him out and explain what I'm up against. Maybe get some pointers.

SprintBob. Yes, Good advise. I'm taking heed of all of this. Thanks.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Seby

Heya Wooly,

I am going to rock the boat a bit here and offer some advice that is contrary to much of the above : )

*ducks and runs for cover*

(1) Do not use a metronome.

Agree, with reservations.
In an ideal world, no one would use a metronome. We'd all be dancing and playing with each other, and tempos and rhythms would sort themselves out intuitively.
The best way to learn to keep time is to play with other musicians, as many as possible. (Er, probably not dozens at the same time....)
Unfortunately that option is not open to all of us.

Meanwhile, our instinctive sense of time is not metronomic: it's flexible - it changes with our mood and immediate circumstances, without us being aware of it - until some external reference wakes us up to it.
When we play music, tempos have to stay reasonably steady - not metronomic (unless we're producing EDM); they can shift organically, but should stay within narrower limits than our natural sense of time.

A metronome is an evil device in many ways. But it's sometimes a necessary evil. Without it, we have no way of knowing how bad are natural sense of time is.

Originally Posted by Seby

(2) Do not use a book.

Agree 100%.

Originally Posted by Seby

Instead,

(3) Go to the Alan Lomax Archive channel on youtube and play along with some guys who know what they are doing.

Yep.

Originally Posted by Seby

(4) Go out dancing by yourself.

Yep - but surely better with other people?

Originally Posted by Seby

I'll address these in reverse order. Dancing is important because a natural sense of rhythm is something that one learns with one's whole body. If you cannot move your hips and legs and whole body in synch with music that you can hear over a sound system, how on Earth will you move your fingers in synch to music that you are hearing in your head? That is the trick, learning to actually hear the music in your head and letting it move your fingers along with it.

Right.
When the whole body (or most of it) moves, simple physics (body mass and gravity) dictates a near regularity of rhythm - near enough to be good enough for music. At least, within a fairly narrow range of tempos, which is good enough to begin with.

It's where the advice comes from about tapping your foot to help keep time - which may or may not help.
The problem with it is that your foot is controlled by the same brain that's struggling to control your fingers. If your sense of time is crap, foot-tapping won't help, and may make it worse- because now you're having to think about your foot as well as your hands. ("Having to think about it" being the important clue....)

People with a good sense of time will often tap their foot - or bob their head, or move their shoulders, or something - but they don't do that because it helps them as a guide. They do it because it's automatic, their sense of time is expressing itself, and to stop doing it would be an inhibition.

A good, musical sense of time has to be learned (or maybe re-learned). The little fascist metronome will crack the whip, that's for sure. It will test you, and show you how far out your "instinctive" sense of time is. One session with one may be enough of a wake-up call. I certainly wouldn't recommend bowing one's head before it forever...

I agree with you in principle: it would be better (if you can) to seek out other - more organic - ways of improving time-keeping.

The problem with playing along with recordings, or backing tracks, is that they offer too much information. It's too easy to stay in time with them, easy to slot back in if you drift out. You can play along perfectly with a track and (accordingly) think your sense of time is fine. Try and keep tempo without that help, and it may well collapse again.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Maybe some people simply have no built in sense of time.

They're out there. I have a friend who has always wanted to be musical and has made many attempts with various instruments. His lack of timing has always been the thing that discouraged him. Many moons ago, when we were in our teens, he thought he could be a lead singer for a cover band. He'd sing the songs well enough but if there was some kind of instrumental solo in a song, he could never figure out when to come back in.

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by Wooly

I ordered the Travis books as per previous suggestions. If they don't help, they won't hurt. I got the go ahead to take some lessons. There is a hot shot player in town that gives lessons. Many have recommended him. I don't think he does fingerstyle but I'm going to check him out and explain what I'm up against. Maybe get some pointers.

Wooly,

I could not find a local teaching environment I felt comfortable with so I took the route of Skype lessons with a very, very good fingerstyle teacher and I'm happy with the results. They (Skype instructors) are out there so keep that in the back of your pocket if local lessons do not work out for you. I think your approach is "sound" and will have good results.

Best again on your journey.

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Agree, with reservations.
In an ideal world, no one would use a metronome. We'd all be dancing and playing with each other, and tempos and rhythms would sort themselves out intuitively.
The best way to learn to keep time is to play with other musicians, as many as possible. (Er, probably not dozens at the same time....)
Unfortunately that option is not open to all of us.

Meanwhile, our instinctive sense of time is not metronomic: it's flexible - it changes with our mood and immediate circumstances, without us being aware of it - until some external reference wakes us up to it.
When we play music, tempos have to stay reasonably steady - not metronomic (unless we're producing EDM); they can shift organically, but should stay within narrower limits than our natural sense of time.

A metronome is an evil device in many ways. But it's sometimes a necessary evil. Without it, we have no way of knowing how bad are natural sense of time is.
Agree 100%.
Yep.
Yep - but surely better with other people?
Right.
When the whole body (or most of it) moves, simple physics (body mass and gravity) dictates a near regularity of rhythm - near enough to be good enough for music. At least, within a fairly narrow range of tempos, which is good enough to begin with.

It's where the advice comes from about tapping your foot to help keep time - which may or may not help.
The problem with it is that your foot is controlled by the same brain that's struggling to control your fingers. If your sense of time is crap, foot-tapping won't help, and may make it worse- because now you're having to think about your foot as well as your hands. ("Having to think about it" being the important clue....)

People with a good sense of time will often tap their foot - or bob their head, or move their shoulders, or something - but they don't do that because it helps them as a guide. They do it because it's automatic, their sense of time is expressing itself, and to stop doing it would be an inhibition.

A good, musical sense of time has to be learned (or maybe re-learned). The little fascist metronome will crack the whip, that's for sure. It will test you, and show you how far out your "instinctive" sense of time is. One session with one may be enough of a wake-up call. I certainly wouldn't recommend bowing one's head before it forever...

I agree with you in principle: it would be better (if you can) to seek out other - more organic - ways of improving time-keeping.

The problem with playing along with recordings, or backing tracks, is that they offer too much information. It's too easy to stay in time with them, easy to slot back in if you drift out. You can play along perfectly with a track and (accordingly) think your sense of time is fine. Try and keep tempo without that help, and it may well collapse again.

As a beginner-intermediate, I have experienced much of what JonPR offers above in learning how good my sense of timing really is. I believe you have to use a metronome with a strategy in mind and know when to practice without it as a reality check (and when you do that try to record yourself so you can really analyze how you sound to an audience). Great response (as they usually are from JonPR).

[reeve21]

Originally Posted by jim1960

They're out there. I have a friend who has always wanted to be musical and has made many attempts with various instruments. His lack of timing has always been the thing that discouraged him. Many moons ago, when we were in our teens, he thought he could be a lead singer for a cover band. He'd sing the songs well enough but if there was some kind of instrumental solo in a song, he could never figure out when to come back in.

That is really too bad. Some songs are trickier than others in their phrasing. If someone had taught him to count the beats in his head or even out loud he might have developed the ability to know where the beat was and eventually figure it out.

I come from a horn background as a kid, and in a concert band format you would sometimes lay out for dozens of measures at a time. Counting was drilled into our heads, because when the whole section doesn't come back in on the same beat there is a big problem, you can't fake it like a singer by altering the phrasing a bit.

There is a guy on the internet named Griff Hamlin. His teaching is done under the name of Blues Guitar Unleashed or something close to that. He pounds on counting as being very, very important, and the way to fully develop whatever natural timing you have.

The first thing I do when I'm having trouble feeling where the notes go is count the beats out loud. It works for me

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by reeve21

That is really too bad. Some songs are trickier than others in their phrasing. If someone had taught him to count the beats in his head or even out loud he might have developed the ability to know where the beat was and eventually figure it out.

I tried to help him many times at various points in our lives (we've been friends since the mid-70s). I remember doing the counting thing with him but that didn't work. He could count along as long as the drummer kept a steady beat but as soon as the drummer did a fill he'd lose all sense of where he was again. He simply had no inner sense or feel for the timing of a song.

Originally Posted by reeve21

I come from a horn background as a kid, and in a concert band format you would sometimes lay out for dozens of measures at a time. Counting was drilled into our heads...

I'm have no doubt that learning to play the recorder in elementary school and playing the trumpet in junior high school factors pretty heavily into what I can do today. I didn't necessarily love those things at the time but I'm grateful now for what I was taught because I never have to count beats.

[reeve21]

Originally Posted by jim1960

I tried to help him many times at various points in our lives (we've been friends since the mid-70s). I remember doing the counting thing with him but that didn't work. He could count along as long as the drummer kept a steady beat but as soon as the drummer did a fill he'd lose all sense of where he was again. He simply had no inner sense or feel for the timing of a song.



I'm have no doubt that learning to play the recorder in elementary school and playing the trumpet in junior high school factors pretty heavily into what I can do today. I didn't necessarily love those things at the time but I'm grateful now for what I was taught because I never have to count beats.

Hi Jim,

If the number in your screen name is your birth year then you and I were suffering through school band practice at almost the same time But no doubt that training has served us well. Our band director used the work Mississippi to count out sixteenth notes. I still hear it in my head sometimes.

Too bad about your friend. I guess this is the rhythmic equivalent of not being able to carry a tune in a bucket....