Swapping a K&K Trinity mic with Baggs Lyric/Anthem

NoodleFingers · #1 12-21-2015, 04:03 PM

Hi everyone. First time post.

I'm planning a dual-source pickup system for a Rainsong Shorty I will be buying shortly. The K&K Trinity Solo system seems pretty much perfect (excellent piezo transducer, no battery or barndoor), except for one thing:

I really don't want a gooseneck microphone inside the body. This isn't a rational thing... I'm sure it's a great microphone, but having it sticking out loose (and visible) inside the body would seriously bug me.

I would be willing to buy a used Baggs Lyric or Anthem system if I could cut the wires to the Trinity mic and splice in the Baggs Tru-Mic. As I understand, both are condenser mics. The Trinity mic needs 9V phantom power, and the Tru-Mic is likely the same.

This should (I think) result in a great-sounding, very flexible system, as long as I used the right blending preamp. The K&K Quantum Blender should work, as would a used Raven PMB 1/2 or perhaps a D-tar Solstice. But I have questions:

1) Is there any reason why this would not work?

2) How important is it to exactly match the phantom power voltage? (I believe the Solstice supplies 15V.) Is there an easy way to tell which lead on the Tru-Mic should get the 9V?

3) What should I be careful of/look out for?

4) Does anyone know if there is any actual difference between these two Tru-Mics? (Lyric and Anthem) Questions to Baggs about this have so far gone unanswered.

Many thanks in advance for your help.

P.S. I plan to put the piezo transducers right under the saddle and the mic as close as possible to them on the soundhole side. It doesn't sound like the mic placement is that critical. And I will definitely have a luthier perform the installation.

P.P.S. I did read this thread: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=288048 but it didn't address my technical questions.

akafloyd · #2 12-22-2015, 10:10 AM

Welcome to the forum!!

As I understand it, the Lyric and the Tru-mic are fairly heavily processed by their included preamps. The Lyric has a stereo jack and can accommodate another pickup if you want to add a passive magnetic or sound board transducer to that.

NoodleFingers · #3 12-22-2015, 01:15 PM

Thank you.

From what I can figure (Baggs seems really tight-lipped about how their systems work), the Lyric uses some proprietary circuitry to cut low-end "boominess" from their mic, while the Anthem does something similar by letting everything below 250 Hz get handled by a UST.

But if the Lyric does indeed leave its jack open for an additional transducer, that might be an easier way to accomplish the same end. But then I have a battery to deal with inside the guitar, which I'd rather avoid.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything about wiring the Lyric for stereo operation in the Baggs install guide. Do you know where I might find out more about that?

Doug Young · #4 12-22-2015, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoodleFingers

Thank you.

From what I can figure (Baggs seems really tight-lipped about how their systems work), the Lyric uses some proprietary circuitry to cut low-end "boominess" from their mic, while the Anthem does something similar by letting everything below 250 Hz get handled by a UST.

But if the Lyric does indeed leave its jack open for an additional transducer, that might be an easier way to accomplish the same end. But then I have a battery to deal with inside the guitar, which I'd rather avoid.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything about wiring the Lyric for stereo operation in the Baggs install guide. Do you know where I might find out more about that?

The Lyric has a 2nd set of pads for a 2nd source - straight pass thru. So that will work fine with the K&K. I've posted demos here in the past of the K&K+Lyric. See:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f.../t-366575.html

The only gotcha is that the Lyric and K&K are supposed to occupy the same spot on the bridgeplate, so something has to give. I installed the K&K's on the saddle line, and mounted the Lyric behind the bridge pins. The Lyric alone doesn't sound quite as good in that spot, but it's ok as an add-on to the K&K. Overall, after experimenting with this setup for quite a while, I decided there are better options for me.

Another option is just to choose another mic, a more traditional mic. (The Lyric acts more like an SBT than it does a mic). I typically use a DPA 4061, but there are other options. You can mount them right inside the soundhole (or other locations as well) using a small clip - no gooseneck. Here's how I do mine:

Of course, the gooseneck does offer a bit more flexibility - you might just find the sweet spot is out in the middle somewhere, where only a gooseneck will work.

joeguam · #5 12-22-2015, 04:07 PM

I'm in the same camp as Doug, there are far better options. I did extensive testing and experiments with the Lyric and the Pure Mini, and there just wasn't a sound produced that was worth the trouble of all of the customization work needed. I mean, it was good, just nothing worth doing.

Also, the mic in the Trinity is a different type of condenser than the Lyric. The Lyric is a "pressurized" condenser that is designed to face the back of the guitar to eliminate the reflections of the close surface it's facing. Unfortunately, the cancellations are not done in the microphone itself, but in conjunction with the proprietary LR Baggs preamp technology - which the Trinity preamp does not do.

If you'd still like to do some experimentation, I have an extra Lyric microphone by itself in my toolbox (separated from the preamp already). Send me a PM if you're interested.

Doubleneck · #6 12-22-2015, 05:14 PM

I did attach a K&K SBT to my Lyric as an experiment and it worked fine but never was so pleased with it that it stayed. I have the K&K Trinity in my last guitar for a year and really like it. My mic was install so that it really isn't that noticable. I find I use more than 60% mic, it's a very good system.

NoodleFingers · #7 12-31-2015, 12:24 AM

That's good to hear. I just hope I can get similar results putting the lyric mic in place of the Trinity mic. That way I won't have to worry about onboard batteries or electronics.

But I would love to find out if 15V phantom power (like the D-tar Solstice provides) will still work OK with the Lyric mic (which I think normally uses 9V).

Anybody?

Doug Young · #8 12-31-2015, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoodleFingers

That's good to hear. I just hope I can get similar results putting the lyric mic in place of the Trinity mic. That way I won't have to worry about onboard batteries or electronics.

But I would love to find out if 15V phantom power (like the D-tar Solstice provides) will still work OK with the Lyric mic (which I think normally uses 9V).

Anybody?

The Lyric *preamp* runs on a 9 volt battery. I have no idea if or how you would power that from an external phantom power source. We also have no idea what voltage the raw Lyric mic needs, or if it can be used effectively without the associated electronics, if thats what your thinking. It sounds like you are thinking of the active Lyric- tru-mic plus electronics as a dropin replacement for an electret condenser like the silver bullet. Id view them as *very* different things. In addition to a completely different electronic setup, the Lyric really acts more like an SBT than a mic. It picks up the soundboard, not so much "air" like a regular mic. Its a unique design.

NoodleFingers · #9 12-31-2015, 01:06 AM

I wouldn't power the preamp. I don't want the onboard preamp. The Lyric microphone is a condenser mic, though, that requires phantom power. That much I've figured out. I am assuming that it uses 9V for that power because the battery is 9V, and the whole thing seems too small for much of a transformer on board.

I taking some risks here, but the Lyric Tru-Mic looks very much like the Anthem Tru-Mic. And as I understand it, the Anthem system uses a simple 250 Hz crossover to split the signal between the Tru-Mic and the Element UST.

Basically, what I hope to do is make something similar to the Anthem, but with the K&K Pure Mini in place of the Element UST, and a much more flexible system for blending the two signals, outside the guitar.

P.S. I would be perfectly happy to use the Anthem Tru-Mic, too.

Doug Young · #10 12-31-2015, 01:25 AM

Yes, my understanding is that the lyric and anthem mic are basically the same. Both require a lot of processing to sound good - from the lyric and anthem electronics. You're definitely in uncharted territory with what your trying, but who knows, you may like it. I know that a normal electret works quite well, and lots of people use them sucessfully, but maybe this will work, maybe not. I dont think anyone outside of people at Baggs can supply any info that will help you, and my guess is they'd discourage you from trying. Let us know how it works out.

By the way, the general idea of a system that lets a pickup handle the lows, and the mic handle the highs is what many people do. You just need something like the k&k plus a mic - the silver bullet is fine, I usually use a DPA 4061, into a dual source preamp, and the solstice is a fine example. Eq by rolling the bass off the mic, and maybe some highs off the pickup, and you've got it. For my uses, a real mic that adds air works very well, and provides a good sound.

You can also do this with the lyric just by adding the k&k to the 2nd channel on the Lyric. It just passes the chsnnel thru. Baggs has benn pretty clear that theres a lot going on in the electronics of the lyric to get rid of the boxy resonant sound of the internal mic. I havent tried it, but all indications are that the raw mic needs special circuitry to sound good.

Blunote · #11 12-31-2015, 08:20 AM

You might consider installing a B-band A2.2.

They've been discussed on these forums and are among the most transparent I've heard. I installed this system in my Eastman AC710 and have one on order for a Taylor 812 I recently purchased from another forum member.

They're active, and feature a UST and soundboard transducer along with a sound hole mounted blend and volume controls. The UST captures mids and low end while the sound board AST senses the higher frequencies for a very natural acoustic tone.

Mtn Man · #12 12-31-2015, 08:41 AM

FYI, Caleb Smith has done exactly what you're talking about. He used the mic from the Anthem and spliced it into three K&K transducers, which essentially took the place of the under saddle element. Caleb is the guitarist for Balsam Range and is also a luthier. Last time I talked to him he offered to install this system in my son's guitar. Caleb's a nice guy and fairly accessible so you may want to contact him and see if he has any words of wisdom.

FWIW, I personally think the Lyric by itself sounds a lot better than this hybrid system. I can't stand the sound of piezos.

Mtn Man · #13 12-31-2015, 08:42 AM

Also...I believe Caleb told me this wouldn't work with a Lyric.

buzzardwhiskey · #14 12-31-2015, 10:39 AM

I have Lyrics in my guitars and have decided to try a dual pickup system by adding a DiMarzio Black Angel to my Martin CEO-7 and running both into an UltraSound DI Max. The new pickup is on its way from Sweetwater now and I'll make a video comparison asap. The theory is to supplement/replace the middle frequencies of the Lyric with the Angel.