K&K vs JJB

[steveyam]

Mine will be fed into the Bose T1 that has extensive 'tone matching' circuitry and tone shaping controls, with input gain control of course.

Hmm. I sense a degree of confusion here re pre-amps. A lot of people understand a 'preamp' to be something that is some kind of little box either fixed inside the guitar, on a waist belt or on the floor, with an input from the pickup, and another lead coming from it into the PA mixer. That's not always the case; one has to understand that many modern mixers are very versatile in terms of their pre-amp facilities and feature very low noise pre-amp circuitry to enable you to 'go direct' to the mixer even with relatively low output devices (not that these pickups mentioned here are low output). So, by going direct into such a mixer, you're not 'missing out' on a pre-amp - it's just physically configured within the mixer. And in the case of the T1, that's excellent because it sits right in front of me at waist height on my mic stand; no holes to be cut into the guitar, no preamp kicking around on the floor or belted around my waist. Just because someone isn't using an 'XYZ brand, super-duper, low noise, add on pre-amp', it does not mean that they are not using an equally good pre-amp within their mixer. Just wanted to clear that one up

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by steveyam

Mine will be fed into the Bose T1 that has extensive 'tone matching' circuitry and tone shaping controls, with input gain control of course.

Hmm. I sense a degree of confusion here re pre-amps. A lot of people understand a 'preamp' to be something that is some kind of little box either fixed inside the guitar, on a waist belt or on the floor, with an input from the pickup, and another lead coming from it into the PA mixer. That's not always the case; one has to understand that many modern mixers are very versatile in terms of their pre-amp facilities and feature very low noise pre-amp circuitry to enable you to 'go direct' to the mixer even with relatively low output devices (not that these pickups mentioned here are low output). So, by going direct into such a mixer, you're not 'missing out' on a pre-amp - it's just physically configured within the mixer. And in the case of the T1, that's excellent because it sits right in front of me at waist height on my mic stand; no holes to be cut into the guitar, no preamp kicking around on the floor or belted around my waist. Just because someone isn't using an 'XYZ brand, super-duper, low noise, add on pre-amp', it does not mean that they are not using an equally good pre-amp within their mixer. Just wanted to clear that one up

HI Steve...

Yet, the sound from a K&K will be improved with the use of an external preamp, even though there are preamps in mixer.

I've never been able to match the tone and quality straight into a mixer compared to what I can do with the external preamp in the loop, no matter how high quality the board or acoustic amp.

Still, it's a cheap experiment to go straight into your Bose, and then borrow a preamp if you need to and try it for yourself.

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

HI Steve...

Yet, the sound from a K&K will be improved with the use of an external preamp, even though there are preamps in mixer.

I've never been able to match the tone and quality straight into a mixer compared to what I can do with the external preamp in the loop, no matter how high quality the board or acoustic amp.

Still, it's a cheap experiment to go straight into your Bose, and then borrow a preamp if you need to and try it for yourself.

Larry, as I implied ("most modern mixers"), it all depends on the quality of the mixer. A mixer is a collection of preamps; per channel it's function is to take low level signals and amplify and process them through to line level, then mix them and pass the signal on to the main amp. Just because a separate preamp is a so-called dedicated one for guitar pickup use, it does not automatically make it better than a channel in a good, high quality, versatile mixer. Re yourself you say, "..have never been able to match the tone and quality straight into a mixer compared to what I can do with the external preamp in the loop, no matter how high quality the board or acoustic amp". In fairness, one person's results dont make the task impossible do they?! I don't see it as a "cheap experiment" at all, I see it as an ideal solution. Maybe you don't know about the versatile Bose T1. It has:

input gain
tonematch choice (ie you tell it the source type)
zEQ ie normal (bass, mid and treble) tone controls
ParaEQ (parametric EQ)
Seven dynamics processing types (three compressors, limiter, de-esser, kick gate and noise gate)
reverbs
delays
modulators
tuner

All high quality, low noise - if that lot can't sort out the sound of a pickup, nothing can. I have all the high quality tools I need there and importantly I know how to use them. And having experienced great results from the device for nearly three years, used with various sources, I am SURE it will do the job that I need it to do. Larry, I know your advice is well meant, and I know you're a teacher, but do understand that other people have strong, knowledgable views too, and on this I suggest we agree to disagree

[Doug Young]

Note that a number of people use the T1 as their "external preamp", running the guitar into it, then into the "real mixer". The lines get pretty blurry on what's a "preamp" and what's a "mixer".

[cary]

All high quality, low noise - if that lot can't sort out the sound of a pickup, nothing can.

With all due respect, I believe that is an over-simplification, and I have to agree with Larry. I can't speak for the JJB, but the K&K minis very clearly sound best when used with an impedance-matched pre-amp or active DI.

In my own experience, any pre-amp or DI that doesn't match the K&K's 1 MegaOHM output, ends up requiring large and judicious amounts of EQ in order to make up for either undue boominess or ice-pick treble.

A properly impedance-matched pre (such as that in K&K's own pre-amps, the Orchid DI, UltraSound, or others,) will indeed help bring the best out of these pickups.

Just my two cents. Yes, the sound of the K&K can certainly be passable when plugged straight into a decent mixer with a decent pre-amp, but the optimum tone comes when impedance is matched.

YMMV. Good luck!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by steveyam

...I have all the high quality tools I need there and importantly I know how to use them. And having experienced great results from the device for nearly three years, used with various sources, I am SURE it will do the job that I need it to do. Larry, I know your advice is well meant, and I know you're a teacher, but do understand that other people have strong, knowledgable views too, and on this I suggest we agree to disagree

Hi steve...
Sorry - I had my Bose L and T mixed up.

I'd contend your T1 is in the same category (on steroids) as many preamplifiers, and suspect it would fill that gap quite nicely.

A question, if you were going to play a venue with an adequate existing PA, would your T1 accompany you as your preamp and the rest of your Bose rig stay behind? Looks to me like it would be an awesome preamp even without your L1.

[Wasper]

Just a question regarding either the K&K or the JJB, since I'm in the market to amplify my Walden.

Is it imperative to go through a pre-amp? I guess what I'm asking, does it sound "decent" just plugged directly into an amp? I'm just looking for a bit of volume from my guitar while practicing with my teacher. I would worry about more pure sound down the road when my skills improve (improve enough to play for others, that is, lol).

I've listened to many videos of pickups, as I was going to originally go for a sound hole type. After listening, the K&K, JJB and the like sound the best to me.. I don't know, they sound more...natural, or something (hard to put into words). Do you guys think that either of these would fit the bill?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Wasper

J
Is it imperative to go through a pre-amp? I guess what I'm asking, does it sound "decent" just plugged directly into an amp?

Not imperative. You'll be fine.

[mcoliver77]

Jessie (JJB) is very quick to answer emails. I'm still waiting on K&K to provide me options on the best way to isolate why my simple K&K setup is humming (guit direct, via DI or preamp).

I've put my money on JJB and placed an order for two sets to test. And for an extra 10 bucks, I get to choose copper-colored end jacks (don't like the shiny silver ones that comes default.)

[kerrinsdad]

Originally Posted by cary

With all due respect, I believe that is an over-simplification, and I have to agree with Larry. I can't speak for the JJB, but the K&K minis very clearly sound best when used with an impedance-matched pre-amp or active DI.

In my own experience, any pre-amp or DI that doesn't match the K&K's 1 MegaOHM output, ends up requiring large and judicious amounts of EQ in order to make up for either undue boominess or ice-pick treble.

A properly impedance-matched pre (such as that in K&K's own pre-amps, the Orchid DI, UltraSound, or others,) will indeed help bring the best out of these pickups.

Just my two cents. Yes, the sound of the K&K can certainly be passable when plugged straight into a decent mixer with a decent pre-amp, but the optimum tone comes when impedance is matched.

YMMV. Good luck!

okay...for us dummies following along here (at least for me)...
How do you know which ones match? I mean where do I get that info?
Specifially, I'm wanting to pull an I Beam out of an OM that i have and replace it with a JJB or PWM...will this work with my Baggs PARA/DI?
Feel free to speak to me like I'm three....

[chitz]

Originally Posted by kerrinsdad

okay...for us dummies following along here (at least for me)...
How do you know which ones match? I mean where do I get that info?
Specifially, I'm wanting to pull an I Beam out of an OM that i have and replace it with a JJB or PWM...will this work with my Baggs PARA/DI?
Feel free to speak to me like I'm three....

I have been using JJB & K&K with a Baggs PARA DI for years and it works wonderfully with both. No problems there.

Kill that Ibeam!

[kerrinsdad]

I appreciate the quick and helpful encouragement. Thanks for that!
Now, is there an AGF sponsor to purchase either from?

[kendallhadden]

Which one? JJB has to be ordered through Jesse (the owner) or Ebay and K&K can be ordered through a few of the sponsors. AGF is a great place and the members will try their best to answer any questions you have.
kwh

Originally Posted by kerrinsdad

I appreciate the quick and helpful encouragement. Thanks for that!
Now, is there an AGF sponsor to purchase either from?

[chitz]

Originally Posted by kerrinsdad

I appreciate the quick and helpful encouragement. Thanks for that!
Now, is there an AGF sponsor to purchase either from?

I buy the JJB's direct from Jesse @ JJB $49.99 shipped
Be sure to specify 15 or 20mm piezos.

I buy the K&Ks from Either Maurys Music or Shoreline $86.10

[kerrinsdad]

Originally Posted by kendallhadden

AGF is a great place and the members will try their best to answer any questions you have.
kwh

Yessiree! That has always been my experience as well. I just began a correspondence w/ Jessie. Thanks!