Non Tapered Bridge Pin Holes

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Martin hasn't used a 3 degree taper since 1930.

Really now, this has become quite ridiculous. I have confirmed 3 degree taper on 4 Martins. I am currently adding the fish glue treatment to them to change it to 5 degrees. Do you have any proof to back your statements?

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

Tapered pins and tapered holes that fit perfectly fill all the voids and push the ball end as far forward as possible on the bridge plate. This provides maximum vibrational energy of all the frequencies produced by the strings resulting in a full tonal response which is what I consider to be good tone. Also the taper acts as a wedge to keep everything that much tighter.

So, uhm, does that mean that pinless bridges don't sound as good, that they have less than "maximum vibrational energy"?

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

So, uhm, does that mean that pinless bridges don't sound as good, that they have less than "maximum vibrational energy"?

Umm, no they seem to be the ideal situation much like I have described for good fitting slotted tapered pins and holes. Hope this helps!

[mirwa]

I'm not entering or continuing the debate on 3 or 5 degree.

My question is, you mention you are going to change the taper pin angle from 3 to 5 degrees, in doing so you mention the need to build the hole up with fish glue, why do you need to build the hole up, would not a greater angle, require more wood to be removed from the top of the pin hole.


Steve

[David Eastwood]

Anyone who does not understand Victory Pete's posts is clearly not qualified to understand.

Folks, there is a pattern here, and a few minutes using the forum's search function will be most illuminating.

From your website, Pete, you advertise yourself as a builder.

Tell me, how do you deal with the bridge pin holes in the instruments that you build and sell? Are they tapered, slotted, carefully layered with fish glue, or what?

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by mirwa

I'm not entering or continuing the debate on 3 or 5 degree.

My question is, you mention you are going to change the taper pin angle from 3 to 5 degrees, in doing so you mention the need to build the hole up with fish glue, why do you need to build the hole up, would not a greater angle, require more wood to be removed from the top of the pin hole.


Steve

Thanks for the great question. You could ream so the top gets wider but then the overall hole would be too big and the pin would want to fall in too much. With the 3 degree factory Martin taper the 5 degree Waverly pins are only tight at the top of the hole. The bottom has the gap. So it is a little of taking some of the top and adding to the bottom.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

Anyone who does not understand Victory Pete's posts is clearly not qualified to understand. Folks, there is a pattern here, and a few minutes using the forum's search function will be most illuminating.

From your website, Pete, you advertise yourself as a builder.

Tell me, how do you deal with the bridge pin holes in the instruments that you build and sell? Are they tapered, slotted, carefully layered with fish glue, or what?

I taper my holes with a 5 degree reamer.

[Kerbie]

Guys, I understand the frustrations, but please try to keep the conversation about the topic rather than personal insults...

[Victory Pete]

This whole exercise has turned into a very interesting project. I have reamed out the previously glue filled holes in my 1998 HD-28. After reaming and setting the pins to a nice uniform height I decided to take measurements. Top part of hole is around .221", which incidentally, a 2A pin is .220". The bottom part of the hole is .173". The length of the hole is .5". With these known values I can determine the angle using tangent, tangent is opposite over adjacent sides of a triangle. Opposite is simply .221" minus .173" which is .048". This is the opposite value for tangent. The adjacent is .5". So .048" divided by .5" is .096. which is the tangent of a little over 5 degrees. I can also feel how solid the pins are in now, there is no rocking back and forth, that is what will give great tone and volume.

[Victory Pete]

HD-28 all strung up and sounding great despite having 1 month old strings on it. I have always been obsessed with changing strings as soon as the sparkle disappeared. Now with all my acoustics having so much more zing I think I will be saving money on new strings. Just one more to do, that is the D12-28 and maybe the D Custom I gave to my Apprentice for Christmas.

[LouieAtienza]

Came into this thread expecting something completely different!

I'm actually in a very small minority, in that I do not taper my bridge pins (which I make myself) nor bridge pin holes on my own guitars. I do cant them back about 5 degrees.

Of course, if fitting pins for a customer, I break out the taper reamer.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

Came into this thread expecting something completely different!

I'm actually in a very small minority, in that I do not taper my bridge pins (which I make myself) nor bridge pin holes on my own guitars. I do cant them back about 5 degrees.

Of course, if fitting pins for a customer, I break out the taper reamer.

Interesting approach, I imagine you must slot the holes though. I also imagine your pins fit in snug with no wiggle. Do you have pictures?

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

Interesting approach, I imagine you must slot the holes though. I also imagine your pins fit in snug with no wiggle. Do you have pictures?

Gotta dig them up. Holes slotted, pins piston-fit but not tight. The last three guitars, the customers wanted a certain material which would have been a bit of trouble for me to turn, so I used off-the-shelf.

Because they don't taper and are not slotted, I feel the pins are stronger. Never had an issue with "weak" trebles. With the string slots just right for the string windings, the "force" of the ball end on the pins is way more than one could achieve making the fit tight, yet they pull out just as easily as tapered pins.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

Gotta dig them up. Holes slotted, pins piston-fit but not tight. The last three guitars, the customers wanted a certain material which would have been a bit of trouble for me to turn, so I used off-the-shelf.

Because they don't taper and are not slotted, I feel the pins are stronger. Never had an issue with "weak" trebles. With the string slots just right for the string windings, the "force" of the ball end on the pins is way more than one could achieve making the fit tight, yet they pull out just as easily as tapered pins.

It is good to think outside of the box, pun intended.

[Victory Pete]

After many e-mails to Martin, they now say that they do not taper their holes. The 3 degree taper I measured can be explained by the fact that the bridges are pre drilled before gluing to the top. A drill is then used to drill through the predrilled bridge and through the top and bridge plate. I have measured numerous times that the size of the bottom of the hole is less than the top. This is because even if the same size drill is used for both bridge and the top that slightly different size holes can appear. The bridge being ebony would tend to have a larger hole than the softer spruce and maple which may not be cut so cleanly, also the bridge hole has a drill go through it twice making its size slightly larger. The truth is all I am looking for here. So anyway I have modified my D-42 and HD-28 with the fish glue method and they both seem to sound better because they both now have 5 degree tapered holes and matching bone pins.