DI help: preamp vs. DI

gfsark · #1 09-12-2017, 08:45 AM

The last few times I performed on stage with a professional sound crew and equipment, I showed up with my guitar and nothing else. The crew was surprised that I didn't have a DI, but rummaged through their equipment and found something for me, plugged it in and made it work.

I'm a solo performer, guitar and vocals. Most of the time when I play, I'm using a Bose L1 with the T1 preamp. I'm thinking that for my next gig (coming up in a few weeks) I could:

1. Use the T1 preamp which provides a line out for the sound guys
2. Buy a DI

The T1 with 4 inputs will support mic and guitar and has extensive signal processing (reverb, equalizer, fx, etc) and the sound is superb. But the T1 is kinda clumsy because it's really designed to be hung on the L1 PA with a special mounting bracket, and it has to have a separate (and special) power supply.

Or should I get a simple DI and let the sound professionals figure out what sounds the best?

Or do something else?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Mandobart · #2 09-12-2017, 08:56 AM

This thread ought to help you with basics of active DI's, passive DI's and preamps. If you're ever going to play somewhere through a house PA you need to have your own DI or preamp and know how to use it. If you'll always be playing through your Bose or other amp designed for piezo pickups you won't need a DI or preamp.

akafloyd · #3 09-12-2017, 09:05 AM

David Wilcox uses a T1 as a blender/preamp/DI and it works great for what he does. It seems to me that most pros use some kind of outboard preamp system. It's difficult to recommend something not really knowing your needs, but it could be anything from a simple DI box with no tone shaping control to some type of preamp with lots of tone shaping and feedback control (which you have in the T1).

MrErikJ · #4 09-12-2017, 10:10 AM

What pickup do you use? If you use an active pickup with effective EQ/tone shaping, you can use a good passive DI box to convert your instrument signal to a balanced signal. If you have a passive pickup or something without EQ options, you may prefer a preamp/DI combo with some level of adjustable gain.

There are a million recommendable options and it all depends on what type of pickup you use. In regards to dedicated DIs, Radial is the standard and the PZ is an active box that is calibrated for acoustic pickups. If you want a preamp/DI the Baggs Paracoustic DI refuses to go away and they also have the more robust Venue model, Fishman has the Platinum Stage and several others, the BBE Acoustimax is nice if you like the Maximizer, and of course, Radial's Tonebone PZ series are fantastic. Personally, I use the Radial Tonebone PZ Deluxe and the Baggs Paracoustic DI depending on the setting. I also have the BBE Acoustimax but find that it works better with a SBT like a K&K or maybe a magnetic pickup.

gfsark · #5 09-13-2017, 07:50 AM

I'm using a K&K pickup on my Santa Cruz guitar. The venue is a small country fair, there is a lot noise so need to use the PA else I would not be heard too well. On other occasions I just ignored the PA and set my own gear up and played in front the stage which allowed the next band to set up in the background. The Bose seemed to work quite well for a couple hundred people, but they were listening, not milling around and making noise.

I'd rather bring my entire rig to the concert and use the Bose tower as a monitor. I find stage monitors very distracting because the sound is so unnatural. Anyone do this?

MrErikJ · #6 09-13-2017, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gfsark

I'm using a K&K pickup on my Santa Cruz guitar. The venue is a small country fair, there is a lot noise so need to use the PA else I would not be heard too well. On other occasions I just ignored the PA and set my own gear up and played in front the stage which allowed the next band to set up in the background. The Bose seemed to work quite well for a couple hundred people, but they were listening, not milling around and making noise.

I'd rather bring my entire rig to the concert and use the Bose tower as a monitor. I find stage monitors very distracting because the sound is so unnatural. Anyone do this?

I'm sure a lot of people use miniature PAs and acoustic amps as stage monitors. I've used my Fishman Loudbox Mini the same way.

Regarding your preamp/DI conundrum. If you're running into a house PA, a preamp/DI that matches the impedance of the K&K would be recommendable. That eliminates Baggs & Fishman which have too high of an Impedance but you can use Red Eye, the BBE Acoustimax, and (of course) K&K's preamp/DI units. I've been told that, even if you were to run it into your Bose and not need a DI, the K&K does benefit from a preamp to condition and shape the tone. My LB6 is the same way, I can definitely run it straight to the board via a DI but it benefits greatly from a good preamp.

AndyC · #7 09-13-2017, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gfsark

I'm using a K&K pickup on my Santa Cruz guitar. The venue is a small country fair, there is a lot noise so need to use the PA else I would not be heard too well. On other occasions I just ignored the PA and set my own gear up and played in front the stage which allowed the next band to set up in the background. The Bose seemed to work quite well for a couple hundred people, but they were listening, not milling around and making noise.

I'd rather bring my entire rig to the concert and use the Bose tower as a monitor. I find stage monitors very distracting because the sound is so unnatural. Anyone do this?

I do.

I use a Bose L1 Model II with a B2 Bass and T1 Tonematch. My guitar is a dual pickup - K&K Pure Mini and a DiMarzio Black Angel magnetic pickup. I run two guitar signals into the Bose T1 with a stereo splitter cable and each pickup is EQ'd seperately on the T1. I also use a TC Helicon Play Acoustic.

If I am playing a larger gig (usually outdoors) with a full blown PA, I always set up the Bose on stage to use as a monitor. I direct the two guitar signals (Post EQ and volume, 50% each channel) to the Auxiliary channel, and using a balanced TRS - XLR cable that is the feed that I give to the sound guy for my guitar. I get many many comments from sound engineers of how nice a sound they are getting. From the K&K guitar channel, I take the pre-out to give a guitar signal to the TC Helicon for song key purposes. My mic input (Into the T1) comes from the TC Helicon, and I use the pre-out from this channel to give the sound guy the vocal feed, again via a balanced TRS - XLR cable. I hope that all makes sense!

Not only does the Bose act as a superb stage monitor, it also augments the sound from the PA very subtly, but it makes a huge difference. In a typical two speaker FOH system, there can be a bit of a hole in the sound in front of the stage depending on how the main speakers are angled. The Bose fixes this wonderfully.

It's a great improvement over the usual fold back systems that are on offer, and you have much more control over what you hear.

Al Acuff · #8 09-13-2017, 10:07 AM

If you want something inexpensive it's hard to beat the LR Baggs Paracoustic DI. It's like a Swiss Army knife for acoustic guitar. It fits in guitar case. It's the SM58 of DI/preamp boxes.

OOOPS... just noticed that you have a K&K in which case the Red Eye is a better choice than the Para DI.

gfsark · #9 09-16-2017, 09:50 AM

Andy C, I think what you're doing approximately is what I want to do. Thanks for the info!

I'm a little confused, however by the use of the Auxillary channel. Here's what I understand:
The K&K channel pre-out goes to the sound guy for guitar
The vocal/mic channel pre-out goes to the sound guy for voice

And then you mention the Auxillary channel and directing both the guitar outputs to the Auxillary output for the sound guy. I don't understand how the Auxillary gets used. It seems that the sound guy is getting two different outputs for guitar and one for vocals. Is that right? Also how do you "direct" a signal to the Auxillary? Thanks for your help.

ricdoug · #10 09-16-2017, 10:06 PM

LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI or Behringer ADI21. Between these two with one being a very inexpensive option, I always find a solution as a professional live sound engineer. Take all opinions into play as you make your decision. I can and also do with what I recommend with name artists, including myself as a performer with superb results. Skill levels with live sound widely vary. Ric

gfsark · #11 09-17-2017, 08:54 AM

Ric, you are so right about "skill levels with live sound widely vary." While I've studied, practiced and played guitar for decades, I'm pretty inexperienced with live sound. With recorded sound, I've taken one class at the local college.

I have a guitar teacher and a vocal coach, but never thought of or heard of anyone paying for sound equipment lessons. That part of the performer's job seems to be self-taught, and by hanging out with other musicians, AGF and other forums. I'd love to take a class in live sound with special emphasis on all those stomp boxes.

Methos1979 · #12 09-17-2017, 09:39 AM

With the K&K you could go a couple ways. If you do not need any sort of tone-shaping or EQ because you play with a pick or fingerpicks or fingernails then something like the Fire Eye Red Eye is the easiest way to go. Most sound guys love them.

If you do need some tone-shaping/EQing on your end either because you play fingerstyle with the meat of your fingertips and/or the sound guys you encounter regularly can't/won't EQ for your needs then the K&K preamp or the LR Baggs Para will give you more than enough.

There's some other really good options out there but the prices start to go up. I have K&Ks in most of my guitars and I typically use the Red Eye and just dial up some treble on it. I also will use the little K&K preamp with the belt clip if I feel I need some volume control and/or EQ on my person because it just clips to my belt.

The Para as a TON of tone-shaping, EQing, notch/feedback killing options on it. As someone said, it's the SM58 or standard for small, inexpensive, reliable and effective DI's. I've got one but rarely ever use it. PM me if you're interested in it.

JayBee1404 · #13 09-17-2017, 10:43 AM

Personally, I wouldn't waste my money on a Baggs Para DI. The input impedance of the Para DI is 10 megohms, which makes it a serious mis-match for the 1 megohm output impedance of the K&K. The result will be a bloated 'excessively-bassy' sound, which will require a lot of EQ to tame (if you can tame it at all).

I dumped my Baggs Para DI in favour of the Orchid Muting DI, which has an input impedance of 1 megohm, precisely matching the K&K, which gives a far more 'balanced' result. It's UK-built which, being myself a UK-er, is one of the reasons I like it. However there are other DI/Pre-amps that match the K&K and are made in the US - the Redeye is one I often see mentioned on this kind of thread.

For EQ, I use the Source Audio 4-Channel Programmable EQ Box. When playing with my band I use two guitars and a mandolin, so I have a channel set up for each instrument, each with its own gain and EQ settings, and I need only the one cord - when I change instruments, I hit the 'Mute' button on the Orchid, transfer the cord to the 'new' instrument, hit the button on the Source Audio to select the appropriate channel, and un-mute the Orchid.

http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/muting_DI_Box.htm

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/ampli...rogrammable-eq

Usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.