Buffed off some finish from Martin LX1 need advice

[catfish]

Originally Posted by jpmist

Judging from the pics, my take is that you haven't damaged the finish so much as coated it with something, hence the streaks. A satin finish (even a "hand rubbed" one) has a lot of microscopic pores which your Planet Waves stuff has filled in, whitening it as it dried.

You might email Planet Waves with a pic to see what they might recommend to take it off. I'm sure you're not the first one who's done this and they need to know to put warnings on their products not to apply to satin finishes.

I'd try some denatured alcohol, then maybe some mineral spirits to get the Planet Waves coating off.

Thank you very much, will try to speak to Planet Waves about it. Yes, I was also thinking the white stuff penetrated the pores and stayed there. I tried to wipe it away with wet cotton cloth and a drop of liquid for dishwasher - no luck. Maybe some spirits will help.

Originally Posted by fnesnor

Well you're on your way to becoming an experienced guitar top refinisher. You can make it look nice. First, don't put any waxes, etc on it. Two, tape off your bridge, fretboard extension and sides. Three, go ahead and remove the remaining matte finish (just like you have been doing) to make the surface look the same. I would use 400 grit. Four, remove all dust, etc, from the top and seal the wood with a thin coat of shellac. Five, apply several coats of Tru Oil (short oil varnish) with a soft lint free cloth. I would shoot for a dozen coats (or more). The dry time between coats is short so you could do a couple a day. Also, I would lightly remove any dust/particles between coats with 0000 steel wool wetted with naphtha. Let the varnish cure for six months before you do any buffing (if it is required). Another tip if you use Tru Oil: Lightly dampen the application cloth with denatured alcohol before charging it with varnish. This will help it flow better and dry quicker.

Thank you for your advice, but for the moment I do not feel like I'm ready for this rather pro solution. Besides, I do not have a dust-free area in my apartment. It is not big and we live here four people and one dog Too much dust every day.
Overall, I am not too much upset about this incident. If the similar thing would have happened to my 000-15M, I would have been very much upset. But LX1 is just a 'utility' guitar, not a totem.

[charles Tauber]

First, if one is going to do anything to an existing finish, one needs to know something about that finish. If you don't know what the finish is, or what kind of finish it is, it is best to leave it alone but for the occasional use of a slightly damp cloth.

Second, less expensive instruments often reduce manufacturing costs by using satin finishes of minimal thickness. As you have now discovered, attempting to polish or buff those, one will cut through them. They were never meant to be buffed or polished.

Third, spruce is a "closed-pore" wood, meaning that it has very small pores, too small to have polishing products get trapped in its pores. The whitish areas are not polishing product trapped in the pores of the spruce. You can contact the manufacturer of the product you used, but there isn't much they can tell you but not to do what you did.

Fourth, if one wishes, there is nothing wrong with applying a thin coat of wax to a finished surface. Some "finishes" are nothing more than wax, though a wax finish is not a good choice for a musical instrument.

Fifth, if you do not know what type of finishing material has been applied to an instrument, applying a bunch of solvents as "cleaners" is unwise. At least test in an inconspicuous area prior to use to see if the "cleaner" reacts with that finish.

Last, you probably don't want to apply a "stain" or any other penetrating finish to the unfinished top. Many finishes and stains won't adhere well unless the top is taken back to clean, bare wood. (Shellac is an exception.)

[bluetweed]

wipe and clean with naptha / sand from 320 to 220 and tru-oil 3-6 coats a day
with 2-3 hours between coats and 220 sanding every 3rd to 4th coat

it will look like this
A strat neck and Martin C-hole cut-out
I also did the sunburst Tele in Nitro

[catfish]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

First, if one is going to do anything to an existing finish, one needs to know something about that finish. If you don't know what the finish is, or what kind of finish it is, it is best to leave it alone but for the occasional use of a slightly damp cloth.

Second, less expensive instruments often reduce manufacturing costs by using satin finishes of minimal thickness. As you have now discovered, attempting to polish or buff those, one will cut through them. They were never meant to be buffed or polished.

Third, spruce is a "closed-pore" wood, meaning that it has very small pores, too small to have polishing products get trapped in its pores. The whitish areas are not polishing product trapped in the pores of the spruce. You can contact the manufacturer of the product you used, but there isn't much they can tell you but not to do what you did.

Fourth, if one wishes, there is nothing wrong with applying a thin coat of wax to a finished surface. Some "finishes" are nothing more than wax, though a wax finish is not a good choice for a musical instrument.

Fifth, if you do not know what type of finishing material has been applied to an instrument, applying a bunch of solvents as "cleaners" is unwise. At least test in an inconspicuous area prior to use to see if the "cleaner" reacts with that finish.

Last, you probably don't want to apply a "stain" or any other penetrating finish to the unfinished top. Many finishes and stains won't adhere well unless the top is taken back to clean, bare wood. (Shellac is an exception.)

Thank you very much, Charles, for your comprehensive overview of my problem! I admit I acted foolishly with my 'improvisation'. I see now that whitish areas are not polish particles trapped in pores, so I will not try to clean it with alcohol or solvents -- precious advice.
No, I do not like stain, especially amateurish stain, and I understand very well that it will not adhere in this case (unless I sand a consideable part of the top).
So, possibly, beeswax was not a bad idea after all. I have used beeswax on wood many times, and on Barbour coats as well. It will need a little help of hairdrier, but I will apply it very accurately not to dry/burn the top.

Originally Posted by bluetweed

wipe and clean with naptha / sand from 320 to 220 and tru-oil 3-6 coats a day
with 2-3 hours between coats and 220 sanding every 3rd to 4th coat

it will look like this
A strat neck and Martin C-hole cut-out
I also did the sunburst Tele in Nitro

Thank you very much, bluetweed, for your advice, your pictures give a good impression, but I would not go for it, too much work and lack of conditions at home as I described above in my previous post.

[Swamp Yankee]

Leave it and tell people it's a Bob Dylan Tangled up in Blue model

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by fnesnor

Well you're on your way to becoming an experienced guitar top refinisher. You can make it look nice. First, don't put any waxes, etc on it. Two, tape off your bridge, fretboard extension and sides. Three, go ahead and remove the remaining matte finish (just like you have been doing) to make the surface look the same. I would use 400 grit. Four, remove all dust, etc, from the top and seal the wood with a thin coat of shellac. Five, apply several coats of Tru Oil (short oil varnish) with a soft lint free cloth. I would shoot for a dozen coats (or more). The dry time between coats is short so you could do a couple a day. Also, I would lightly remove any dust/particles between coats with 0000 steel wool wetted with naphtha. Let the varnish cure for six months before you do any buffing (if it is required). Another tip if you use Tru Oil: Lightly dampen the application cloth with denatured alcohol before charging it with varnish. This will help it flow better and dry quicker.

Just curious as to why you suggest going beyond the shellac for sealing? What kind of material is the top of the LX made of? How is his LX finished differently than his other guitar? It would seem to me that one would want to use as little finish substance as possible, particularly and oil that would penetrate the pore and potentially dampen the top? Just asking.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by catfish

So, possibly, beeswax was not a bad idea after all. I have used beeswax on wood many times, and on Barbour coats as well. It will need a little help of hairdrier, but I will apply it very accurately not to dry/burn the top.

Taking a hair dryer to your guitar top isn't the best idea.

Beeswax polishes, such as often used for salad bowls, are usually beeswax with a solvent, such as mineral spirits, to produce a consistency that can be wiped on. The solvent will evaporate leaving behind the beeswax. That would be better than heating your top with a hair dryer. Wax finishes, generally, provide little resistance to water or sweat, though they are easy to apply/reapply.

Some food-grade beeswax recipes use fruit or vegetable oils, such as olive or walnut, etc. Avoid putting penetrating oils on your top: they will sink into the wood and you'll never get them out. They also never harden and will eventually go rancid.

[catfish]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Taking a hair dryer to your guitar top isn't the best idea.

Beeswax polishes, such as often used for salad bowls, are usually beeswax with a solvent, such as mineral spirits, to produce a consistency that can be wiped on. The solvent will evaporate leaving behind the beeswax. That would be better than heating your top with a hair dryer. Wax finishes, generally, provide little resistance to water or sweat, though they are easy to apply/reapply.

Some food-grade beeswax recipes use fruit or vegetable oils, such as olive or walnut, etc. Avoid putting penetrating oils on your top: they will sink into the wood and you'll never get them out. They also never harden and will eventually go rancid.

Oil was out of question, but I have both hard natural beeswax and commercial wax polish for wood with solvent. Yes, I agree that neither is stable against water and sweat.

Probably, wax is not a good option. And if I'll wax it even once, then it may penetrate into wood and will make it impossible to apply polish such as True-Oil recommended above. Maybe I will leave the guitar as it is for the time being and will come back to it later on, during the summer perhaps.

[ManyMartinMan]

Originally Posted by roylor4

Play it like it is and stop messing with the finishes on your guitars.

This is what I would do. Hopefully you've learned a valuable lesson - if it ain't broke, leave it alone and play it.

[Wade Hampton]

Catfish, the sad thing is that many guitar owners who try to "improve" their satin finish guitars by shining them up to a high gloss have fairly catastrophic results, just as you have. The major difference in your case is not that this occurred, but that you've shown the rest of us what's happened. Most folks never admit to this sort of mistake publicly.

All of us like the lower prices that satin finish guitars sell for. But those satin finishes simply aren't designed to be shined up. There just isn't enough finish material sprayed onto them to be able to attain a high gloss.

That won't stop anyone from attempting to buff out their satin finish guitars, of course - all my years on online guitar forums have taught me that, if nothing else. But it's never a good idea.


Wade Hampton Miller

[fnesnor]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Just curious as to why you suggest going beyond the shellac for sealing? What kind of material is the top of the LX made of? How is his LX finished differently than his other guitar? It would seem to me that one would want to use as little finish substance as possible, particularly and oil that would penetrate the pore and potentially dampen the top? Just asking.

Tru Oil is a brand of what is known as "short oil" varnish. It is varnish. Many boutique builders use it for finishing guitars. I use it on my builds. It will not penetrate wood pores sealed with shellac. Application is accomplished by hand rubbing multiple thin coats resulting in a deep lustrous soft glow. It will not dampen the sound board. It ages beautifully and is easy to repair if required. The LX top is Sitka Spruce but this product can be used on any wood. I recommended it because it is very easy to use and even a novice can accomplish a professional looking finish with it.

[chitz]

Clean it with Naptha. See what it looks like after that.

[jpmist]

Originally Posted by catfish

I see now that whitish areas are not polish particles trapped in pores, so I will not try to clean it with alcohol or solvents -- precious advice.

Yikes. Ya know, no disrespect intended to all of the other armchair experts (myself included) but please try the naptha or alcohol first. Please don't used any form of sandpaper on your finish.

A close look at your pics shows distinct lines near the saddle where your polish didn't penetrate. If you had broken the finish and rubbed into the actual wood, the lines wouldn't be that sharp.

There is likely no solvent you can get your hands on that will harm the finish and you could always test it on a small area on the back of the headstock if you're unsure. As opposed to putting any kind of abrasive on it which won't be reversible.

Also, please do all of us armchair experts a favor and get back to us with what Planet Waves tells you to remove their product off your guitar. It's their product, they know what's in it and they are your best source of info on how to address your problem instead of us. . .

[catfish]

Thank you everyone! I just sent an e-mail via Planet Waves site with description of the issue and the questions. Gave them link to this thread.
If they will reply, i will report here.

[Edgar Poe]

Carefully take it back to bare wood, Then reapply a couple thin coats of clear matte finish.

Ed