How do we know if we're getting REAL South American mahogany anymore?

[gfspencer]

The best thing about Sapele is that is smells so darn good.

[ohYew812]

May be of interest...

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforu...m/topic/180905

[PiousDevil]

Can anybody tell what specific "mahogany" this is?

[JackNapier]

Originally Posted by PiousDevil

Can anybody tell what specific "mahogany" this is?

Looks like khaya, which is called African mahogany.

[Rockysdad]

[QUOTE=PiousDevil;5147934]Can anybody tell what specific "mahogany" this is?
I'd have to "scratch" & sniff it to be sure......

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by JackNapier

This guy gets it. Take heed.

If we're talking about the properties of various woods for cabinet making I understand that swietenia works superbly. Khaya in contrast has more interlocked grain than swietenia and tends to be a bit tougher to work with. This is all consistent with what smnmt said.

However its relevance to how these woods are effectively used in luthiery is quite another matter. The resulting tone is of paramount importance in building any well constructed instrument. I have yet to hear of a luthier who has indicated that they cannot work with any of the swietenia alternatives because they don't provide a suitably stable build or adequate tone for their instruments.

[rwmct]

Originally Posted by catdaddy

While it's true that genuine mahogany (genus swietenia) is becoming scarce, and builders are increasingly using related alternatives (most often from the genus khaya or genus meliaceae) I've found that the guitars I've owned that have been built with those alternatives are equally fine instruments in terms of their tone. Other than the difference in appearance from swietenia of these different woods which can vary from almost indistinguishable to fairly obvious, I can't understand why a guitarist would insist on having a guitar made only with swietenia. Rejecting out of hand viable alternatives while assigning a certain exclusive cachet to a type of wood based only on its past use or rarity and not its functionality seems rather a disservice to oneself as a guitarist to me.

This kind of harks back to the "headstock" discussion. A lot of people, and I am one, want guitars like the classic guitars we heard used by the guitarists we admired as a kid. For me, with that means mahogany, rosewood, or maple. Any acoustic guitar I buy is going to be made from one of those woods. (And the headstock is probably going to say Gibson, Martin, or Guild).

[PiousDevil]

Originally Posted by JackNapier

Looks like khaya, which is called African mahogany.

It's a D-18, does that make any difference?

[JackNapier]

Not really. Most larger production guitars have moved to sapele or khaya.

[rogthefrog]

I feel this absolute preference for swietenia should be earned based on passing a few blind tests better than chance. Otherwise it's just reactionary knee-jerk grumbling.

[rosborn]

Jean Larrivee has stated that they use Khaya (African Mahogany) for their guitars. I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed and I think I can safely say that Jean Larrivee has forgotten more about guitars and guitar building than I will ever know; so, I will trust his judgment.

[John Arnold]

I believe African mahogany (Khaya) is probably the closest to Honduran. It does tend to have more interlocked grain (ribbon stripe) which may be less stable. That is mostly a concern with necks rather than backs and sides. Years ago, I made a few necks from Khaya, and all but one have worked fine. The one that didn't was a banjo neck, which ended up with a slight twist. Careful selection of the wood should eliminate most (if not all) stability problems.
The only reliable way I know to distinguish Khaya from Honduran is with a magnifying glass. Honduran has storied rays which create ripple marks on tangential surfaces. Khaya has staggered rays and no ripple marks.

To answer the earlier question about Sapele's brighter tone (which is harder and heavier than the other common mahogany alternatives), I will say that a luthier can adjust thickness and bracing to warm up the tone. That is less likely on a factory guitar, because factories tend to stick to the same dimension, regardless of the back and side wood used.

How long has this substitution been going on? Since at least the 1970's, when Martin use Khaya for the bodies of their style-18 guitars.

[mjudd]

Does it REALLY matter what species of wood is in the guitar if you like the way it sounds? Play it before you buy it. If it speaks to you, who cares what species it is? If it doesn't, don't buy it.

[tadol]

Most of the woods that were used "traditionally" were done so based on their availability - Honduras had a well developed logging and shipping industry before others. Now we have access to a wider variety of woods - that doesn't make them worse, or the others better. It mostly has to do with the skill and experience of the builder. Some people can make the finest instrument grade wood sound bad -

[rosborn]

Originally Posted by tadol

Most of the woods that were used "traditionally" were done so based on their availability - Honduras had a well developed logging and shipping industry before others. Now we have access to a wider variety of woods - that doesn't make them worse, or the others better. It mostly has to do with the skill and experience of the builder. Some people can make the finest instrument grade wood sound bad -

And some people can make guitars made with cardboard sound great - like Robbie O'Brien.