V-bracing and Taylor's Marketing Machine... so NOT impressed.

[Pickcity]

LOL...I care just enough to post this.

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by SMan

At the end of the day its just a salesman puffing a product. Entertaining to watch though.

Like a carnival barker. Step right up! At the end of the day even if Taylor has created a guitar with balanced sustain and volume up the fret board, that just means they've created Taylor sounding guitars that happen to have the balance of a piano. That is a neat innovation, but at the end of the day it will not replace the sound of traditional iconic instruments that made every acoustic lover out there drawn to the acoustic guitar. It won't be the right tool for everyone.

Have a listen to Taylor's own studio recordings of these new V-Class braced guitars (demo videos's embedded in links below). Then have a listen to a few high quality acoustics in similar price range. To my taste the new Taylor's sound pretty lack luster recorded compared to quality X-braced instruments. It's just one recording of each guitar, but if you go to Taylor's Facebook channel and listen to the live videos of V-Class braced guitars broadcast from NAMM you're hearing the same tone character... The V-Class guitars still sound like Taylor guitars. Judge for yourself


New Taylor 914CE with V-Class bracing
https://www.taylorguitars.com/sites/...s/914ce_FS.mp4


New Taylor K14CE Builders Edition with V-Class Bracing
https://www.taylorguitars.com/sites/...Edition_FS.mp4


Compare to

This Lowden
https://youtu.be/RYV_UsjIU-s?t=31

or this Martin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUT7GzbQSh0

or this Collings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUwiVWQ4jPM

[jaymarsch]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

Like a carnival barker. Step right up! At the end of the day even if Taylor has created a guitar with balanced sustain and volume up the fret board, that just means they've created Taylor sounding guitars that happen to have the balance of a piano. That is a neat innovation, but at the end of the day it will not replace the sound of traditional iconic instruments that made every acoustic lover out there drawn to the acoustic guitar. It won't be the right tool for everyone.

Have a listen to Taylor's own studio recordings of these new V-Class braced guitars (demo videos's embedded in links below). Then have a listen to a few high quality acoustics in similar price range. To my taste the new Taylor's sound pretty lack luster recorded compared to quality X-braced instruments. It's just one recording of each guitar, but if you go to Taylor's Facebook channel and listen to the live videos of V-Class braced guitars broadcast from NAMM you're hearing the same tone character... The V-Class guitars still sound like Taylor guitars. Judge for yourself


New Taylor 914CE with V-Class bracing
https://www.taylorguitars.com/sites/...s/914ce_FS.mp4


New Taylor K14CE Builders Edition with V-Class Bracing
https://www.taylorguitars.com/sites/...Edition_FS.mp4


Compare to

This Lowden
https://youtu.be/RYV_UsjIU-s?t=31

or this Martin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUT7GzbQSh0

or this Collings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUwiVWQ4jPM

You know I experienced a similar thing in that after I listened to the sound clips, I pulled out both of my Wingerts and my Kramer - all three are hand builds and vary in age. All three are rosewood. All three have different tops. But, all of them have wonderful sustain, great volume and when I play chords up the neck, they are in tune with one another. No wolf notes or crazy inharmonicity that is noticeable. So it might be possible that luthiers put in a lot of hours to achieve this and maybe the V-Class bracing cuts down on the time it takes to achieve the same results? I am withholding any more specific comments about the tone of these Taylors until I play one in person.

Best,
Jayne

[Billkwando]

Originally Posted by cotten

Interesting analogy! I have neither the time, the energy, nor the inclination to become part of the Guitar Police. If the little old lady you mentioned asks my advice, I will be happy to assist, but will not spend my time picketing or arresting my best friend because his advertising is not the way I'd do it. I might be tempted to try one of his sample oranges, though.

cotten

Originally Posted by usb_chord

I really do believe you could - especially in the high-end. I'm sure there will be A/B vids coming soon!

It's funny you mention that, because the one Taylor dealer I saw that did a "comparison" of all the models did it in a goofy fashion, with poor mic setup, and talked a long time between each demonstration, almost as if they didn't WANT you to be able to compare the sound of the different models, you know, with your actual ears...


Anyway, I'm new to the forum, and recently bought my first acoustic I've owned in over 20 years (I have many electrics and play all the time) and I'll get to that a moment, but as someone who doesn't read guitar mags or follow the gear side of things, let me blather on for a moment about the whole of my experience with the Taylor brand. It's a very short story:


1990s: Saw R.E.M. (my favorite band) on MTV Unplugged, playing Taylors, and went "What's a Taylor? Must be nice! I like they have a little dip on the headstock where the capo fits perfectly." I prrrrrrrrrobably checked a local guitar shop and found out they were prohibitively expensive, but maybe I didn't. Forgot about Taylor completely.


Late 90's/Early 2000s: Saw a Taylor ad that absolutely disgusted me. It's been like 20 years, so I'm paraphrasing (and maybe not remembering the visual side perfectly)....

It was a black background, fancy white fonts of course, with a pretty girl on it. It said something like "Amy winced when she saw the price tag, but once she heard how it sounded, she knew she couldn't live without it" (or something corny, almost exactly like that)

So basically they're bragging about their guitars being overpriced, to the point that it's a point of pride. Like "Ok, if you're rich, this is the guitar for you, because you deserve the very best" or "If you care about your art, you will take out a bank loan to buy this guitar, because otherwise you're doing a disservice to your artistry".

That's the kind of vibe they exuded, and it doesn't seem like it has changed much. Like it was as much (or more) a status symbol than something you actually made music with. I obviously never forgot this, and the distaste never left me.


Mid 2000's: Saw a guy at Potbelly, the sandwich shop, playing one. Figured he must've seen the same ad I did, and actually fell for it. LOL


2016: Saw the Indigo Girls (I love them) in a clip on YouTube saying that they play their Martins on tour, but at home they write on Taylors (did they just punch an endorsement deal in the face, without actually violating it?)

So anyway, yeah they make great guitars, but I can't be the only person who finds their "Guitarri Testarossa" hype incredibly offputting.....but I couldn't afford one anyway, so obviously I wasn't the market for them.

Their finishes also annoy me, like they're finish-coded so anyone can take one look and know that "no, that matte finish wasn't an aesthetic choice on your part....you just couldn't afford a shiny one"


Anyway, back to my guitar story: I owned a $300 Washburn acoustic and a cheapy Fender 12 string. Lost track of both of them, and didn't have another acoustic for over 20 years, as I mentioned before. I kept telling my wife, "I'm not settling for another cheap acoustic. It'll either be a NICE one, or nothing at all".


Now fast forward to more recently..... After I got my mandolin last year, I started visiting the local Guitar Center and checking out acoustic guitars, because I couldn't record much on my mando without one.

Soooooo, on my lunch break I walk in, and sitting on a stand (in the front, where they keep whatever is cheap or they're really trying to move that day) is this acoustic guitar. I pick it up, play the intro to the Indigo Girls' "Power of Two" (because that is the defining awesome acoustic guitar sound, to me, "chime-y" and beautiful), and go ...

I sit there, playing this guitar, going through literally every single acoustic guitar song I know, going OMG this thing sounds AMAZING! The best guitar I've ever heard!

I go, "OK, I need to do comparing here, cos this thing is NUTS!"

I go back in the guitar room, and there's nobody back there. I take this as my chance to pull down all the most expensive acoustic guitars, one at a time and quickly, while that magical guitar's sound was still in my head, to compare. I went through every single expensive acoustic they had, Martins, high end Taylors, some weird super pricing brands I can't remember, and one crazy inlay festooned guitar that cost _$15,000_ that was behind the guitar counter........ none of the guitars, including the pricey Taylors sounded any better than the guitar I played.

The guitar I played and fell in love with, ladies and gentlemen, was a Taylor Academy 10!!

Sooooo, my theory is that all Taylors sound amazing, and they want to sell you on the bling and extra features and soak you for whatever you can afford.

As magical as that Academy 10 sounded to me, I still can't believe that they can dare call something a "beginner" guitar, and then turn around and sell it for $600. Nobody starts a hobby with that kind of money unless they're rich.....and that's who Taylor is marketing toward. People with more dollars than sense.


I can happily tell you that, a few months later, I got an Academy 10 off of eBay for $338, and it sounds just as good as the one I played in the store.

THAT is my "lifetime Taylor", and I'm just glad I got out cheap.

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by rgregg48

...Will the bracing system be as effective when you're putting out 500 guitars a day just asking

Would Bob gamble five decades of blood and sweat on a new marketeer/ luthier or the entire Legacy of Taylor guitars that won't make it past 10 years? Time will tell, but I don't think so.

[martingitdave]

I stand corrected. After 7 min of watching this guy go “plink plink” on the fret board and listening to him tell me how in tune he is, I’ve decided to sell all my guitars and send Taylor a check for all my money. To think I’ve been subjecting my audiences to thirds that were “beating.” I feel so ashamed. This must be what “rock bottom” feels like. :-(

https://youtu.be/Sri3T02eIz8

Or, you can watch this guy go “plink plink” with a click track in the background. Is it possible that they don’t want you to hear the guitar?

https://youtu.be/QJ0JBjSeK_c

[gitarro]

The taylor ads dont really concern me in so far as it may concern a product that may interest me to buy because I am generally not interested in any factory made guitar no matter who makes it.

However the ads do make a claim that i was not previously aware of - whixh is that their new v bracing improves the intonation of the guitar.

I always thought that intonation had little to do with the bracing of the top but has everything to do with the neck, fretting, scale length proportionality with the bridge, etc.

Furthermore I have read that no guitar in the world being a fretted instrument can have perfect intonation. Hence solutions such as curvy frets http://www.truetemperament.com/faq/#A2

So it seems to me the idea that the acoustic guitars' poorer intonation is caused by the x brace seems to be erroneous.

So whats the consensus of those in the know here - does top bracing affect intonation? And if so does the x brace promote worse intonation than other bracing patterns?

[rokdog49]

I feel strongly both ways.

[guitararmy]

The Builder's Edition with the new bracing got a nice review in the latest Guitar Player magazine. (surprise). Maybe it's the combination of the V bracing and the torrified top that does the trick!

[Shuksan]

I think Taylor's use (misuse) of the term intonation degrades the meaning of the term. They are taking a term which has a long standing specific meaning relative to guitars and attempting to broaden its meaning beyond that widely understood accepted concept to include a bunch of unsupported pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo. Hence the blowback we've been seeing. It's a disservice to the guitar community.

These guitars with the new bracing may well sound great and I hope they do. It's just hard to see why such overhyped misleading marketing is needed when the company has such a loyal customer base. And if the guitars really are that spectacular, they will certainly sell themselves.

[gitarro]

If Taylor is meaning something else what is it they are referring to?

Originally Posted by Shuksan

I think Taylor's use (misuse) of the term intonation degrades the meaning of the term. They are taking a term which has a long standing specific meaning relative to guitars and attempting to broaden its meaning beyond that widely understood accepted concept to include a bunch of unsupported pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo. Hence the blowback we've been seeing. It's a disservice to the guitar community.

These guitars with the new bracing may well sound great and I hope they do. It's just hard to see why such overhyped misleading marketing is needed when the company has such a loyal customer base. And if the guitars really are that spectacular, they will certainly sell themselves.

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by gitarro

If Taylor is meaning something else what is it they are referring to?

I have not really looked into this much, I was always uder the impression that "intonation" as it refers to a guitars relates to it staying in tune based on string length science, so this is what "we" all know.

It appears from what I'm gathering from others responses is that this is somehow related to "temperment" as that relates to how a piano is tuned. Where if I'm gathering this correctly, Taylor is saying that this bracing makes it so when individual notes are played together in a chord that the notes will be more "in tune" with each other, and thus sound better. I'm not so sure how "scientifically" possible this is, and if it is, would anyone notice?

Frankly I just don't think most people, even seasoned guitar players notice such subtle nuances in degrees of "cents"

If this were really a problem, we'd all be complain that when we got our guitars in tune that they just sounded a little off like they were out of tune.

Now I'm not sure if this is what they are suggesting, but if it is, I don't really buy into it. That would be like them creating a problem or solving a problem that did not exist prior to them saying its an issue. My gosh, we've all been playing not as in tune as we could have been all these years, quick someone contact Willie Nelson and tell him we'll have to re record it all over again.

I really don't have any opinions about it, for me this is much more entertaining from a standpoint of observation of business moves and is educational to me from that standpoint.

I find it interesting that a very successful company that does not seem to be in any financial dire straights would make such a radical public move that seems to have some inherent risk involved, taking chances when they really didn't have to.

again I don;t understand why they just did not introduce this as a new line with all their other regular ones, not make a big fuss, just state what it does different and sell them and see how they do, let the market decide if its a great idea.

[lgherb]

I look at all of this as Taylor as a corporation trying to add as much value as they can to the upcoming "passing of the baton". In many companies, when the companies founder retires or expires, they move into a period of eventual decline.

By hyping the V-bracing as the most important innovation to guitar design in decades and highlighting that this was conceived out of thin air by Andy Powers, they are doing everything they can to add value into Bob Taylor's chosen successor - and more importantly - are sending as strong of a message as they can that Taylor Guitars will remain a significant force for years to come.

All of this is to ease the collective mind of the market and quash worries about life of the corporation after Bob Taylor.

Look for more of these exercises in the future as Bob Taylor's departure gets nearer.

[robrick]

I just played my four current Taylor acoustic guitars, and they sound just as great as they did before this V bracing came out!

[Social Exodus]