Soloing theory question

[johnd]

I have a long-standing confusion about the relationship between the notes in the scale for a piece's key, and playing around the chords in the piece.

Let's take C major, and a song which basically goes C - F - Am - G (I IV vi V). Now the chords are built on triads taken from each note of the scale which is why we have C major (C,E,G) Am (A,C,E) etc.

But now if I am noodling/soloing around the chords, which notes/scale do I play for each chord? e.g when we're on a G chord do I play notes from the C-major scale starting at G, or from the G-major scale... when we're on Am do I play around the A-minor scale, A-major, or C-major?

Obviously this would lead to playing notes not in the key signature which is why I'm not sure. Of course no rules are strict when it comes to music but as a general rule, if you are picking a solo around a repeating chord sequence what would you do? Pick notes from the chords - which will be in the key signature's scale - or from the scale rooted on each chord (sorry for not using proper musical terminology)?

[Bikewer]

There are two basic soloing methods, IMO..... Playing over the changes, that is, playing notes from scales associated with the chords themselves, and playing over the melody. Improvising around the melodic notes themselves.

Also..... A lot of tunes feature a signature "lick" or "hook", and you can construct a solo (usually brief) off of that....

Jazz folks do all of this.... The problem you have to avoid with playing the changes is sounding like you're doing exercises. THIS little arpeggio for Am, and THIS little arpeggio for C...... Like that. Sounds very sterile.

When working with the melody, there's a fine line between just playing the unadulterated melody.... Which is pretty boring, or getting so far afield that you don't recognize it any more.

Listen closely to solos that you find pleasing and try to see what those guys are doing.

[joeguam]

I'd like to know this myself.

When I solo, I usually just use the major scale of the root. So in your example, I'd use the C major pentatonic scale all around the fretboard, based on how I feel and the different shapes I know. I "take the solo on a journey", then bring it back to hit the chorus.

Id like to be more structured in my solos, and I've heard of people just playing arpeggios through the different chords played. So in your example, it would be arpeggios in F, G & Am. But, I've tried and never had good success, so I stay away from arpeggios.

Hoping I can get the same clarification you're looking for.

[rick-slo]

Sticking just with your playing in C major key example:

When playing over the F chord you are not suddenly in the key of F so avoid Bb
When playing over the G chord you are not suddenly in the key of G avoid F#
When playing over the D minor you are not suddenly in the key of D minor avoid Bb
When playing over the E minor you are not suddenly in the key of E minor avoid F#
When playing the A chord minor none to avoid

That is why the pentatonic scale is a safe bet.

Major pentatonic scale: C-D-E-G-A (the 1-2-3-5-6)

However there are no hard and fast rules. You can use whatever notes you want.
For example using F# in the melody line of a C major key piece can be fine. Use your ears.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by johnd

I have a long-standing confusion about the relationship between the notes in the scale for a piece's key, and playing around the chords in the piece.

Let's take C major, and a song which basically goes C - F - Am - G (I IV vi V). Now the chords are built on triads taken from each note of the scale which is why we have C major (C,E,G) Am (A,C,E) etc.

But now if I am noodling/soloing around the chords, which notes/scale do I play for each chord? e.g when we're on a G chord do I play notes from the C-major scale starting at G, or from the G-major scale... when we're on Am do I play around the A-minor scale, A-major, or C-major?

Obviously this would lead to playing notes not in the key signature which is why I'm not sure. Of course no rules are strict when it comes to music but as a general rule, if you are picking a solo around a repeating chord sequence what would you do? Pick notes from the chords - which will be in the key signature's scale - or from the scale rooted on each chord (sorry for not using proper musical terminology)?

Which would you guess?

A: the scale the chords all come from.

As long as you can identify a single scale that all the chords in a progression share (that they can all be derived from), then that's the scale you should improvise with. That's the scale that any melody will also derive from.
IOW, these things are all intimately linked.

The secret really - the link - is KEY. A key consists of a scale in which one note is the governing note (tonic, tonal centre, keynote). Melodies and chords alike can all be built from that set of notes. All will then be diatonic, within the key.
In improvising, of course, you are attempting to create new melodies from the same raw material.
Usually the key is either major or minor, although there are common "modal" variations. But the main idea is: don't look elsewhere: every note you need is in the chords in front of you.

That's not to say that you can't introduce other "chromatic" notes (from outside the key) if you want. This is common in blues and jazz. Alongside the 7 notes of the key, you can slip in passing chromatics (between any two diatonic notes) to spice things up a little - like a little salt or pepper on the main ingredients.
Of course, they will sound "outside", so need proper handling in order not to sound like wrong notes. Typically, they're usually followed by a chord tone, which resolves the tension.
Eg, you can stick in a D# note in a phrase in C major, but it will probably need to go in between D and E, and probably resolve to E on the C or Am chord (or maybe down to D on the G chord). D#/Eb counts as a "blue note" in C major, so it will sound quite familiar when you play it; but your ear will probably expect it to be followed by E.

But the important thing is: sticking to one scale as long as possible (with or without chromatics) is not only simplest, it sounds best; it ties everything together.
Don't think about different scales for each chord - unless you find a sequence where that is really the only option.

The only kind of music where every chord needs its own scale is so-called "modal jazz", which is not based on "keys" at all. You don't hear that kind of thing in pop, country, blues or rock. (You can often use modal terms to describe rock music, but the idea of being "in a key" is still fundamental.)

[Bob Womack]

I agree with joe. One of the first considerations for me is melody - either the vocal melody of the song or a melody implied by the chord change that I can play. That is an easy starting point for a melodic development that will contribute to development of the tension structure of the song.

Next, in your particular case, it should be noted that the fundamental (I) and the relative minor (vi) are so harmonically related that you won't have to consider the notes as much as the harmonic and emotional development that you are trying to accomplish, due to their juxtaposition. In other words, the major tonic and the relative minor share the same scale but have different starting points within the VERY SAME NOTES. That might be part of the confusion you are experiencing.

So, if you are playing over the changes in 4/4 with each chord getting two beats, you may possibly want to begin your solo melody on the V (G) for the last two notes of the measure before the first occurrence of the initial I (C). Your melody can repeat similarly twice, once aligned to following C to F, and the second to follow am to G. From there you can melodically explore the emotional relationships between the two changes (C-F, am-G) by landing on one of the notes within each of the chords as they change but writing your melody to move out of the original octave of your first past. You can also explore rhythmic development with double-time, etc. runs or melody segments. If you need to drop the intensity you can explore the use of passing tones, not unlike old Baroque pieces used to move between chords in the form of hammer-ons and pull-offs sounded at the same time as the cowboy chord versions of the chords.

It works.

Bob

[JonPR]

On pentatonics:
As mentioned above, pentatonics can be a safe bet.
Even when you know the whole scale of the key, the pentatonic of each chord is usually the best selection of notes for each chord.
That's because, in a major key, every chord's pentatonic is a subset of the key scale, but focussed on the chord itself - so it makes for a more structured sound in solo phrases than just random soloing on the whole key scale. It always sounds best to work from the chords.

On major chords, you get all 3 chord tones, plus 2nd and 6th
On minor chords, you get all 3 chord tones, plus 4th and b7.
Those extra 2 notes are consonant, they'll always sound good against the chord.

Here's how it breaks down for the chords in C major:

chord         extra        extra
      triad  pentatonic    scale
              notes        notes
C     C E G    D  A        F  B
Dm    D F A    G  C        E  B
Em    E G B    A  D        F  C
F     F A C    G  D        B  E
G     G B D    A  E        C  F
Am    A C E    D  G        B  F

The extra two scale notes in each case have varying degrees of dissonance on each chord. Most are sweet, one or two are more awkward.
Eg, B on the C chord is a sweet maj7, but F is an "avoid note". You can hold the B for a jazzy "wistful" dissonance, but holding F is going to sound more edgy (clashing with the E in the chord), and needs to resolve down to E.

The handy thing about the pents is that if you know your chord shapes you can usually add the other two notes to the shape (the arpeggio) without too much trouble. That's good because it's keeps you aware of the scale-chord links.

If in doubt, as the others say, the pentatonic of the key (C major pent in this case) usually works: it sounds good on C, Am and F, but can sound off on the G chord.
But notice there are actually only 3 pentatonics in the above list:
C maj pent = Am pent
F maj pent = Dm pent
G maj pent = Em pent
Each pent sounds equally good on each one of the pair. And there is only one note difference between C/Am and G/Em, and between C/Am and F/Dm.

BTW, the other advantage of thinking in pents of each chord is it will often work even when some chords seem to be out of key, or you're not sure what the overall key scale is.
Obviously, use your ear as you experiment. As mentioned, not every diatonic (in-key) note sounds good on every chord; and sometimes a chromatic note does sound good.
There are no really hard and fast rules for that, because it can vary from style to style, from song to song - and from performance to performance of the same song, depending on your taste and mood!

So (as Miles Davis said) "there are no wrong notes", but there is a perceptible hierarchy of "in" and "out" at any one time.
Totally "in" = chord arpeggio
Almost always "in" = pent of each chord
Usually "in" = other diatonic notes (from the current key scale)
Usually "out" (but still usable) = chromatics: notes from outside the key

[DavidWhitehurst]

There are a lot of great answers here already for you. I would like to put them altogether and give you my take on this.

1. Use your ears. If it sounds wrong, it could be wrong (learn to adjust quickly). Learn to quickly adjust higher or lower and eventually you'll build an "experience" where you don't hit bad sounding notes. I'm a software developer that's been playing guitar since I was 4. This is similar to how I use Google. E.g. I want to know how to handle a coding issue that I haven't used in a long time. I look it up on Google, but I know from the results which answer is the "right" one. I know this by "experience". You are going to hit some bad notes at first and after you play more and more, you will hit a lot more "right" notes. See the book, "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle.

2. The things people tell you are not always correct. E.g. using scales for each chord is an "okay" premise, however some chords are not just Gmaj they may really be G7, G9 ... This understanding comes with theoretical training and experience. But, your understanding of each of the chords and how long you play each is what's most critical. Get yourself a $100 digital recorder. I wish that I had one in the late 60's when I started learning. Record yourself playing just the chords and the chosen rhythm. Then play or solo over the playback. Do this over and over for practice. This is no different than playing to records in the past and you control what you want to play and learn.

3. I will always recommend that you find a teacher and go through the Mel Bay Modern Guitar series books 1-7. And, you should make each book last a year. That's 7 years but well worth the time. They are not really modern because they don't teach you to play like Steve Vai or Kirk Hammett. It's a method that teaches theory, positions, and a robust use of chords. There is no better on the market for learning in my opinion.

Here's a clip of a raw version of an original that I just wrote and I can't even name all the chords in this piece. Some chords create tension. Others exhibit peace and relaxation. And, if you listen carefully, you'll hear a melody throughout. This is just me on one guitar. Again, it's all about what sounds good, and clearly stating the melody I think.

https://soundcloud.com/david-l-white...ance-the-beach

David

David L. Whitehurst

[Davis Webb]

I have nowhere near the theory these gents do, I find it fascinating to explore harmony.

What I can contribute are some quick and dirty ways to get to know your fretboard for jazz and country and rock. Time tested tricks. These can kick start you nicely.

Country Guitar Trick One

For country, just like jazz, you change your scale every time you change chords. If playing over an A chord, then play the A pentatonic or blues, then if it changes to G, now play the G pentatonic and or blues. When it comes to D, the same. So in country you play over the chord, rather than hold one scale. Same is true in jazz. To simplify single note jazz, just playing combinations of notes that in the jazz chord and you won't go wrong. Neat eh?

Country Guitar Trick Two

Choose a pentatonic box starting on the low E string, which is usually the custom for learning. Now, if you play that same box 3 frets down, you get a nice pentatonic country scale, instantly changes it to country. But of course, you don't have to play country to use this trick for scale changes. Example, you are playing over an A chord. So If you play the pentatonic box starting on the A note of the low E, (5th fret) it will sound blues/rock. Now, just shift down 3 frets, and start the SAME pentatonic scale starting on the second fret, and VOILA!...sounds country. I don't know why this works but its an old timers trick for practical harmony.

Modern country players like Brad Paisley mix the 2 up for a unique sound. A few notes in the pentatonic blues scale then swapping to the pentatonic (3 frets down) box. Mixes up blues and country nicely.

Starter Solo Trick in G Major

Here is a great trick. If you play in G, you have a few options.

a. If you play an E pentatonic scale, starting with the open E and going up to the 3rd fret of the high E, it will instantly sound BLUEGRASS. If you want to charge up the intensity, play the pentatonic starting at the 12th fret of the low E, an octave up, over G and E changes. Sounds country or bluegrass. Now just add the 13th fret of the B and high E strings to your pentatonic box, and VOILA< Duane Allman!

b. If you play the G pentatonic scale, starting with 3rd Fret of the Low E, it will sound BLUES ROCK.

c. If you play a country G scale, from 3rd Fret G, A, B, D, E, F and up, it will sound country.

Now mix em up and you can change from rock to country to blues all in G, to make some terrific riffs.

Remember, in rock and blues, you play the same scale over all changes.
In country and jazz, you change the scale to the root of the chord you are playing.

Last Tip

The rest have covered melody well, but one thing I can add...keep it simple. Create what is called a loop, based on a simple note progression. Then change the loop a bit gradually to add more notes and to develop the theme.

[aharbert_tx]

Conversations like these make me realize how far I have to go

[stanron]

Unless the piece actually changes key the scale remains the same throughout. What changes with the chord changes is the effect of chordal and non chordal rest notes.

There are three notes of the scale in simple chords and therefor there are four scale notes which are not in the chord. The effect of resting or prolonging chord notes is not the same as resting or prolonging non chord notes. Experiment with this. Of course the effect of rest notes changes when the chord changes and a good soloist will be experienced at playing with these effects. (There are also five possible chromatic notes with their own particular effects but there can be a lot of milage to be had without ever using chromatic notes).

I repeat that this is to do with prolonged notes. Shorter notes, which are part of scalar runs, are not subject to these effects.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by aharbert_tx

Conversations like these make me realize how far I have to go

Well, you don't have to...
Look at it this way.
I've been playing for nearly 50 years.
Studying theory for a bit less than that.
The way I describe things here is a kind of distillation of all that experience. (And I guess it's the same for everyone else here.)

But I was improvising 50 years ago (yes, before I was playing guitar). The way I improvise now is essentially the same as I was doing then: messing around with what was in front of me, under my fingers. Using my ears and imagination.
If I'm improved over that time, it's because my fingers have got faster, my ear has got better, and naturally I've heard and played a whole lot more stuff, of all kinds. Not because my knowledge of theory has improved.

IOW, my theory has certainly improved (along with everything else) - but it's not really helped me improvise. It's just helped me "tell you what it is later" - as Miles Davis said (in a slightly different context).

I.e., you don't need theory in order to improvise. You just need to take what you know - the tune and chords in front of you - and play around with it. It's an attitude problem, not a knowledge problem.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by johnd

But now if I am noodling/soloing around the chords, which notes/scale do I play for each chord? e.g when we're on a G chord do I play notes from the C-major scale starting at G, or from the G-major scale... when we're on Am do I play around the A-minor scale, A-major, or C-major?

Obviously this would lead to playing notes not in the key signature which is why I'm not sure. Of course no rules are strict when it comes to music but as a general rule, if you are picking a solo around a repeating chord sequence what would you do? Pick notes from the chords - which will be in the key signature's scale - or from the scale rooted on each chord (sorry for not using proper musical terminology)?

People have done both. In fact, the whole idea (not terribly popular at the moment) of chord-scale theory is basically that there is a scale that implies a chord, so instead of the chord, you can play that scale. This is generally used in jazz, when the changes are slow (because, for example, you would use G Mixolydian to imply G7, but you won't get that unless your solo hits G, B, and F - which if you've just got a measure you probably won't do).

But that's a big giant jumble that you probably don't want to deal with. Its really not relevant to the vast majority of rock, folk, and pop music.

The short answer to your question is to play from the scale that matches the key signature, with variations to accommodate any non-diatonic chords and/or to avoid clashes. (eg, in the key of C, over a C major chord, you want to be aware of how a solo'd F note will clash with the E in the chord).

The more you play with an awareness of chord tones, the more naturally melodic your playing will get. (There's a book, "Chord Tone Soloing" entirely around this concept). This isn't that surprising, if you think of where the chords come from: the chords generally are picked to support the melody, which is to say the melody consists of chord tones (with some passing notes).

That being said, a big leap in my soloing came from focusing on playing melodically, rather than worrying about that stuff. (Focusing on chord tones is the sort of thing that can move you backwards before you move forwards: you're not going to reap the full rewards of it until you master it. Until then, it can make your playing a bit more stilted because you're thinking too much).

Develop your ear, and make sure you're playing intentionally: know what you want your next line to sound like before you play it.

[Bern]

Originally Posted by JonPR

It's just helped me "tell you what it is later" - as Miles Davis said (in a slightly different context).

lol I like that...

[rickwaugh]

This is why people learn modes when they get into intense lead playing. Say you're playing in C major, and the song goes do D Minor, which is the second chord in C major. As stated above, you're still in the key of C, so you would play in C. But you are now playing with D as the root, as you're playing around that note. So, playing the major scale starting on the second note, is Dorian mode. It's an interesting exercise learning the different modes, as it establishes that patterns in your head that match the various chords in the scale. Starting on the third is Phrygian, the fourth is Lydian, the 5th is Mixolydian, the 6th is Aeloian, (also the minor scale,) the 7th is Locrian, then back to Ionian, or the regular major scale.

It's fun just messing around with the modes too, as it's just different ways of listening to and looking at how we play music.

But really, if it sounds good, it's good. You can do all kinds of crazy stuff, as long as it begins and ends well.