A question about the Term European Spruce

[SuperB23]

I've seen this term used a lot. I'm curious wouldn't the term European Spruce be one of the following, German, Swiss Alpine, Carpathian, Italian, or Bosnian? Or am I wrong is European spruce different than all of those. I see this term used a lot by different guitar companies it seems a little vague. I guess it would be like saying North American Spruce instead of Engelmann, Adirondack, or Sitka.

Maybe some luthiers or wood experts can explain this too me better.

[Howard Klepper]

All European spruce is the same species: Picea Abies. The other names are for where it grew, except that German and Norway are sometimes used for it regardless of where it grew. There are local variations that may be subspecies (like Fiemme, which the Italians call red spruce), but most differences are due to growing conditions.

[wcap]

My understanding is that there is one main spruce species that grows wild throughout much of Europe, which we refer to in the U.S. as Norway spruce (it is a commonly planted tree here, and is the species of choice for the big Rockefeller Center Christmas tree in NYC as I understand it). I'm guessing all of these spruces you mentiioned are this species, though I would not be surprised if trees that grew in different areas of Europe might differ in quality due to differences in growing conditions and/or genetics.

Others here might have more accurate or at least more detailed information about the different spruces coming out of Europe though.

Edit: Howard beat me to this by a few seconds, and has more expert knowledge than me too.

[wcap]

Regarding the spruces from North America....

There are indeed multiple species of spruces native to North America.

[RustyAxe]

I wish they'd just call the wood by it's scientific name ... but then, how could they hype their product?

[SuperB23]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

All European spruce is the same species: Picea Abies. The other names are for where it grew, except that German and Norway are sometimes used for it regardless of where it grew. There are local variations that may be subspecies (like Fiemme, which the Italians call red spruce), but most differences are due to growing conditions.

Thanks for the info. That explains a lot.

[devellis]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

I wish they'd just call the wood by it's scientific name ... but then, how could they hype their product?

I was about to write that the Dannon Yogurt folks seem to make it work with Bifidus regularis, but it turns out (I looked it up) that "Bifidus regularis" is a trade name for a bacterium called Bifidobacterium animalis. I guess they figured the species name might put people off. So, marketing wins over scientific accuracy yet again.

[Simon Fay]

There are many different species of Spruce - some better suited for guitars than others. In North America, you have Engelmann Spruce, Sitka Spruce, and Red Spruce as the main species used. However, I have heard conflicting stories as to whether the pre-war Adirondack Spruce found on Martins was really Red Spruce or Black Spruce. I have also seen some luthier built guitars of Blue Spruce (Colorado Spruce).

As Howard mentioned, European Spruce is all one species, with the exception of Caucasian Spruce which is a different species. However, because of the different growing conditions, the Spruce from these different countries tend to have consistently different characteristics. So from a tonal perspective, it makes sense to separate the Euro Spruces into their respective regions.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Simon Fay

...However, because of the different growing conditions, the Spruce from these different countries tend to have consistently different characteristics. So from a tonal perspective, it makes sense to separate the Euro Spruces into their respective regions.

Hi Simon (& others)…
We see a similar thing with agricultural products. Seeds and shoots from Vidalia Onions (grown in Vidalia, Georgia) & Rocky Ford Melons (grown in La Junta, Colorado) have been planted, grown and harvested in other regions of the country/world.

They grew just fine, but they do not taste like Vidalia Onions or Rocky Ford Melons because of soil condition and climate differences.

It makes sense that something similar is occurring with the same species of Spruce planted, grown, and harvested in different regions of the world/country.

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by Simon Fay

As Howard mentioned, European Spruce is all one species, with the exception of Caucasian Spruce which is a different species.

The Caucasus mountains are east of the Black Sea, and run across Georgia and into northeast Turkey. Turkey east of the Bosphorus is considered to be Asia., although the Caucasus are also taken to be a border between Asia to the south and Europe to the north. Anyway, it's debatable whether Caucasian spruce (Picea Orientalis) grows in Europe or not. Let's say it straddles the fence. I have a couple of sets of it I haven't tried yet.

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by devellis

I was about to write that the Dannon Yogurt folks seem to make it work with Bifidus regularis, but it turns out (I looked it up) that "Bifidus regularis" is a trade name for a bacterium called Bifidobacterium animalis. I guess they figured the species name might put people off. So, marketing wins over scientific accuracy yet again.

Not to mention that they tout the product to establish "regularity". Nice to have folks believe that it's part of the little bugger's name.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Not to mention that they tout the product to establish "regularity". Nice to have folks believe that it's part of the little bugger's name.

Hi Rusty…
I think your point is it doesn't make any difference which spruce is labeled by country, just like the Dannon thing with what they call their bacteria is a bit of a gimic...

I make all our own Yogurt, and I have tried a lot of 'brands' of yogurt as starter, and let me tell you even though they all use live bacteria in their products, they certainly affect the flavors of our yogurt.

We experimented carefully and finally found a brand which is best for our taste because of their cultures...it happened to be Dannon, but we didn't care. We just wanted one which when incubated produced the final results we wanted and reproducible results. We would have used any brand as long as it met our tastes and we had ready access to it.

I'm guessing it's a lot that way for luthiers and wood. I bet if a luthier finds a wood source, and despite the hype or naming of it, when they apply his/her criteria to it & he/she finds the appropriate characteristics they are looking for from the wood itself, and then after building gets predictable results with it, then I bet he/she will buy more and use it regardless of the country of origin it is branded with (wow that was a convoluted sentence).

And I bet if they tried wood with different country of origin labels, and applied their techniques to it, they would probably get different results in tone, sustain, overtones etc... I've sure experienced that when I've played German Spruce, Carpathian Spruce, and Italian Spruce guitars from the same builder (same back/side woods, same body size, same build design).

Though there may be some hype, I'm not seeing it from the builders I've been privileged to meet. Never caught one yet hyping the name of their Spruce to up the price...nor are these amazing builders so naive that they are not aware of the scuttle-butt out there about the differences.

It's ok to be careful, but I don't find a lot of scandal connected to the building of guitars...not looking for scams around every corner, and I am enjoying the great guitars folks are building these past few years with a bit more variety in them.

[riorider]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Simon (& others)…
We see a similar thing with agricultural products. Seeds and shoots from Vidalia Onions (grown in Vidalia, Georgia) & Rocky Ford Melons (grown in La Junta, Colorado) have been planted, grown and harvested in other regions of the country/world.

They grew just fine, but they do not taste like Vidalia Onions or Rocky Ford Melons because of soil condition and climate differences.

It makes sense that something similar is occurring with the same species of Spruce planted, grown, and harvested in different regions of the world/country.

And the other part of the Vidalia Onion is that it's trademarked, or patented - whatever the relevant legal term is - so that even if you have the same exact species of onion grown elsewhere it's (by legal definition) not a Vidalia. "Champagne" is the same.

Hopefully the lawyers won't get involved in the spruce definitions...

(just a joke, my legal eagle friends... my brother is an attorney, my son is in law school... I'm not Billy...)

rr

[raptordigits]

An aside:

Each year we harvest about 12 acres of softwood lumber on our property here in Alberta. At times we can cut a mixture of 3 spruce species (White, Black and Engelmann) and Lodgepole Pine and Douglas Fir...so five species.

Not to get into too much detail but they can all be labeled as 'White Spruce' depending on the percent of each species....and depending on their final use (studs, dimensional support beams, etc.). So, when you go through that pile of studs at Home Depot that came from Alberta, Canada....it may be labeled as 'White Spruce' but there is a good chance that a few pieces of other species are mixed in. However when you get into the larger sizes (ie 6x6, 2x10's etc) then they should be single species....building codes rate species and have minimum lumber size for each when used.

Nobody at a mill has time to go through hundreds of thousands of board feet and grade each piece so you should be able to find very high quality pieces for instrument making among general lumber. The same applies to softwood lumber coming from parts of British Columbia...should be quality large dimensional sitka spruce in most bundles.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by riorider

And the other part of the Vidalia Onion is that it's trademarked, or patented - whatever the relevant legal term is - so that even if you have the same exact species of onion grown elsewhere it's (by legal definition) not a Vidalia. "Champagne" is the same.

Hi rr…
True, but the Champagne don't taste the same...we happen to love and use Vidalia which have a limited ''season'' and choose to use other similar onions for cooking at other times of year.