Stainless steel frets

[llew]

I purchased a Martin D-15SM 12 fret (a LAGS custom offering a few years back) which was in need of a refret when I received it among other things. I am maybe the fourth or fifth owner? Anyway, I had my luthier/tech do a total refret and fretboard truing on it and it plays great. It is a bit brighter sounding IMO but being all mahogany it didn't hurt the tone at all. I do believe SS frets do produce a brighter sound than whatever material Martin used for their frets on their Style 15 guitars? But it can be a good thing in certain circumstances. It all depends on the guitar?

[HodgdonExtreme]

I had my 1990s Taylor 815 refretted with stainless and there's no way I could hear any sonic difference.

I'm hard on both frets and strings (after about 2 weeks, my D and G strings will have tiny kinks above the 3rd and 5th frets).

The stainless shows zero wear, and I'm not kinking my strings any faster than I did with nickel silver frets.

Stainless is far far superior to nickel silver in my mind. No experience with Evo.

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by zmf

No experience. The only tidbit I can offer is that Bob Taylor once remarked in Wood and Steel that they tried SS frets, but didn't like the way the guitars sounded.

I freely admit I'm cynical, but I just can't accept Bob Taylor's comment on this matter as having any merit; he has an axe to grind...

Taylor already sells more guitars than anybody else and stainless would mandate either less margin for his company, or a price increase. It would also remove refretting business from his repair shop.

There's just too much money in question here for me to believe "tone" is his sole motivation for sticking with nickel silver.

[llew]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

I had my 1990s Taylor 815 refretted with stainless and there's no way I could hear any sonic difference.

I'm hard on both frets and strings (after about 2 weeks, my D and G strings will have tiny kinks above the 3rd and 5th frets).

The stainless shows zero wear, and I'm not kinking my strings any faster than I did with nickel silver frets.

Stainless is far far superior to nickel silver in my mind. No experience with Evo.

Don't get me wrong...I like the SS frets. But I do hear a difference in the tone. It's not better or worse...just different? And they will probably outlast the guitar by a long shot.

[hess]

My CA GX has stainless steel frets. There is never any noticeable wear compared to my other guitars with other fret material (as in whatever martin, taylor and gibson use).

If you are all over the neck all day every day then go with all stainless. If you are going to play it just a few hours every week, then I wouldn’t bother but would have the folks at Gryphon dress them or replace the first five if really needed. Fret wear often looks worse than it really is in my experience.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

I freely admit I'm cynical, but I just can't accept Bob Taylor's comment on this matter as having any merit; he has an axe to grind...

Taylor already sells more guitars than anybody else and stainless would mandate either less margin for his company, or a price increase. It would also remove refretting business from his repair shop.

There's just too much money in question here for me to believe "tone" is his sole motivation for sticking with nickel silver.

If Bob Taylor thought he could put a feather in his cap by using fret wire with superior wear resistance that he didn't feel had other negative implications you can bet he would. We're talking about a difference of maybe 5 dollars per instrument, and based on the number of guitars sold annually I don't think he's all that concerned with his profit margin. (Anyone who buys a higher end Taylor probably agrees that they are pricey enough...)

Having worked with stainless myself I'd bet it was based more on fewer returns coming back to the shop than if they used stainless wire, which is less predictable as far as spring back and future loose frets to cause warranty claims, and worse, bad word of mouth about their fret work. Stainless wire I've seen can have tang barbs that aren't as well-defined as nickel-silver wire.

I don't know for sure, but I'd be pretty comfortable saying that if Bob Taylor had ZERO instruments ever come back for fret work or warranty claims he'd be totally OK with that.

[The Bard Rocks]

I have 2 guitars with SS frets. One was made that way. My Goodall needed the first 5 worked on, which we did, and after troubles surfaced again we replaced them with SS. They look the same and sound the same as the original German Silver to me. I gather German Silver is mostly nickel and has no actual silver.

I have several with EVO frets, which I like even more. they may not last as well as Stainless, but their color fits better with the colors found in most guitars and they are easier to work on, not being quite so hard.

[Purfle Haze]

Originally Posted by Rbutton

What good are indestructible frets if you have divots in the fret board?

As I understand it, the fretboard has nothing to do with the tone of the instrument. Divots make no difference. The strings contact the fret wires, not the fretboard.

I have one guitar with stainless frets. I had it PLEK'd. I am hoping it will never need fretwork. We'll see!

[AllThumbsBruce]

I had a similar discussion with Frank Ford at Gryphon about my Collings. After he and Richard Johnston (the other owner) looked at the fret grooves I had worn they asked "What? Did you loan it out?" Funny guys. I guess they have heard me play ...

In any case I opted for original Collings fret wire. The new frets are showing wear already, so I am not sure I would make the same choice again.

Originally Posted by Rbutton

It takes a lot of playing to wear standard frets to the point where they cause issues...years or even generations before you have to replace frets. Heck most guitars seldom if ever have the frets dressed (although just about any production guitar, including Marin and Taylor would benefit prom a proper fretleveling).

Eddie Van Halen uses SS because the standard stuff lasts him only a few months. The guitar I have now has significant divots and it's only 2 years old. The Martin I bought a couple months ago is showing very early signs of it.

I think we can establish that nickel frets do wear out, and in some cases pretty quickly. I have a shop who likes working with SS just fine and only charges slightly more. I'm more concerned about any tonal differences. There seems to be a legitimate discussion about whether there is or not a tonal difference. Some people notice no difference. Other people say they're "brighter," but I don't like that word because it's too vague and doesn't really tell me much. Brighter might mean louder. It might mean more articulate. It might mean different kinds of overtones. I just don't know.

Originally Posted by AllThumbsBruce

In any case I opted for original Collings fret wire. The new frets are showing wear already, so I am not sure I would make the same choice again.

Exactly. If you play the thing using bends and vibrato, those darn nickel frets don't stand up. If you're only hammering-on, pulling-off and doing normal fretting they'll last. Or if you're playing a classical with those nearly frictionless nylon strings then you're OK, but spirited playing on nickel frets always seems to make divots eventually, and it doesn't take very long.

I am wondering about that Jescar Evo wire now too. I don't know if Gryphon uses it or not. If not I'll probably just go ahead and get the SS.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Frozen Rat

Eddie Van Halen uses SS because the standard stuff lasts him only a few months. The guitar I have now has significant divots and it's only 2 years old. The Martin I bought a couple months ago is showing very early signs of it.

I think we can establish that nickel frets do wear out, and in some cases pretty quickly. I have a shop who likes working with SS just fine and only charges slightly more. I'm more concerned about any tonal differences. There seems to be a legitimate discussion about whether there is or not a tonal difference. Some people notice no difference. Other people say they're "brighter," but I don't like that word because it's too vague and doesn't really tell me much. Brighter might mean louder. It might mean more articulate. It might mean different kinds of overtones. I just don't know.

On any guitars I have bought over the last couple of decades I have seen divots starting up in nickel silver fretwire well within a year of playing. There are different formulations
of nickel silver and ironically the nickel silver fretwire from decades back was more durable than what is typically sold today.

I have not found that there is a brighter tonal sound with stainless or EVO compared to nickel silver fretwire, either to my ears live or in listening back to my recordings. IMO a
non issue. However if you listen for it in the lower wound strings there can well be little more on the fret buzz with the harder/slicker fretwire. That's due to a bit more string
wiggle right on top of the slicker fretted fret (what should be a string nodal point of no motion). However it is a rather minor thing compared to the overall advantages of durable
fretwire.

[redir]

I did a cowboy chord refret for a guy once who came back 3 months later to the shop owner angry at the 'incompetent' repairman that ripped him off by installing bad frets... I'd hate to shake the guys hand because he's probably break it.

Fretboard wear is actually the result of frets that are too low so that should be a nonissue with proper fret heights.

I think the OP should go with Evo frets personally. That's a good compromise between tone and wear and so far from my experience they seem to be very good in terms of wear.

[Brent Hahn]

I developed a nickel allergy and went stainless on my two acoustic guitars, my Tele and my Ibanez P-style bass. The guitars all sound just fine with them and I don't notice any increase in string wear.

With the bass and stainless Rotos, I get a bit of "sproink" sometimes when I release notes, especially playing with fingers. Playing with a pick, it's easier to palm-mute. I've been told that the EVO's give you less sproink, but until I find $400 between the cushions of the couch, I'm standing pat.

Speaking of EVO's, a duo I go see regularly has them on their Martin D's. Under barely-adequate lights in a dim bar, they don't look all that gold-ish.

[noledog]

As a full-time musician who replaces strings every 3 to 4 shows and plays 150 to 200 a year, I put heavy wear on my frets so I rotate thru my guitars to help. However, when I do refret, I still favour high quality nickel-silver frets from Stew-mac for the tone and feel. I get the 80x50 with a final crown around 45 to 47 and that gives me plenty of fret to do several dressings which I enjoy doing myself...if EVO came in a silver or nickel colour, I would go for it.