A Lyric with a good UST - Anthem Killer!

[se7ent7]

(Alternative title: One of the best acoustic pickup systems you can buy

So the major issue with the Anthem is - you can't EQ/process the undersaddle transducer (Baggs Element) on it's own (in addition to being stuck with a control-less Element, which some of us don't appreciate anyway).

Also you can only use it in one pre-configured way when blending in the TruMic - for the lows.
Lastly the Anthem's TruMic isn't full range, and in my opionion inferior to the TruMic technology on the Lyric.

SO... Why not just wire your favourite UST to the second channel of the Lyric? Lots of people claim you'll get crosstalk. I have not found this to be the case, but using a cable like this wil avoid the issue anyway: Proel DH540 - it's basically a TRS to 2x TS cable with two individually shielded cables running alongside each other, so you can't get crosstalk.

For a cheap high-quality DI option for blending the Lyric and UST look at the Zoom A3. It has some subtle modelling to get rid of some obvious piezo-ness on the UST signal (something you can NEVER do with the Anthem). Also, a great 3-notch automatic feedback buster function on the A3, makes your TruMic amplification system bulletproof in loud environments.

Now that you have full control of your TruMic (Lyric) and UST, YOU can decide how to use them together. Use the UST only for the lows, or do a full range blend of both. I've found better tones running the UST full range (with some A3 modelling).

I have this system in a Martin OMCPA4, using the Lyric with it's F1 Analog, and in a Gibson Songwriter Deluxe using it alongside the Gibson branded Fishman Prefix Plus barndoor (lots of EQ options onboard, and it kills a Baggs Element).

[se7ent7]

Of course there are other options for the second source, like the recommended low impedance options - primarily soundhole magnetics. If you're like me, magnetics just sound too..erm magnetic.

What's possibly even better than this?: A SBT + Lyric (like the K&K Pure Western Mini). However, in my opinion, you want the directness of a piezo to compensate for the "less direct" microphone sound. But the K&K may be the answer for some. Doug Young has a thread with sound samples on a K&K + Lyric setup.

[Petty1818]

I will admit that I considered trying a Lyric + UST set up before going to the Anthem SL. It just seemed like a great way to eq both systems and blend them the way that I would want. Ultimately though, it's more work than is necessary IMO. The Anthem SL that I have is incredibly easy to dial in and sounds great as a complete system. I have also had the lyric in my guitar and it was a complete pain to eq. I know you could dial in less and probably make it work but I have come to the realization that sound checks are often quick and I don't have the time to spend eq'ing two pickups.

I also don't know of many UST's that really surpass the Element. I am not saying the Element is the best, I just don't think many others really beat it out, especially the Fishman systems you are referring to. The only benefit would be that we could go without the Element which could impact the unplugged tone.

Here's the thing though, I don't ever feel the need to eq both the tru-mic and Element. I know this isn't possibly anyway but it's just not a control that I miss. Also, even though the tru-mic is the full frequency, I could still see myself setting the blend to exactly how the Anthem SL is set with the mic carrying the highs and the UST carrying the lows. It kind of defeats the purpose of a full frequency tru-mic.

I wouldn't say the tru-mic in the Anthem is inferior as it's the same one as they use for the Lyric. The Lyric is just set to carry all frequencies. The frequency control might be "inferior" but the tru-mic itself is the same.

It's definitely a neat idea and I am sure more people will try it, I would just have to hear it for myself before investing that much time and effort. I will say this though, I spoke to Stephen Inglis once and he told me that he uses the Anthem plus the Lyric. Apparently he had the Anthem installed with the tru-mic and then added a Lyric as well. According to him, the added Lyric really fattens up the high strings and gives them an added presence. It goes to show that experimentation can lead to great results!

[se7ent7]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I will admit that I considered trying a Lyric + UST set up before going to the Anthem SL. It just seemed like a great way to eq both systems and blend them the way that I would want. Ultimately though, it's more work than is necessary IMO. The Anthem SL that I have is incredibly easy to dial in and sounds great as a complete system. I have also had the lyric in my guitar and it was a complete pain to eq. I know you could dial in less and probably make it work but I have come to the realization that sound checks are often quick and I don't have the time to spend eq'ing two pickups.

I also don't know of many UST's that really surpass the Element. I am not saying the Element is the best, I just don't think many others really beat it out, especially the Fishman systems you are referring to. The only benefit would be that we could go without the Element which could impact the unplugged tone.

Here's the thing though, I don't ever feel the need to eq both the tru-mic and Element. I know this isn't possibly anyway but it's just not a control that I miss. Also, even though the tru-mic is the full frequency, I could still see myself setting the blend to exactly how the Anthem SL is set with the mic carrying the highs and the UST carrying the lows. It kind of defeats the purpose of a full frequency tru-mic.

I wouldn't say the tru-mic in the Anthem is inferior as it's the same one as they use for the Lyric. The Lyric is just set to carry all frequencies. The frequency control might be "inferior" but the tru-mic itself is the same.

Petty everything you say makes sense, and of course, the Element is one of the top choices, however I'm one of those (along with Doug Young I believe), who don't like it that much.

My main thing with this Lyric + UST dual system as opposed to the Anthem, is that I can dial out "that piezo tone" which I simply can't stand, while still using the piezo to add directness and the hyper real low-end we all like so much.

yeah, so being able to run the UST through a A3 (or maybe Mamma bear or a touch of Aura), or perhaps some TC Electronics BodyRez - is the biggest deal here.

I do admit that this system isn't that simple, especially since you'll have to bring along a multiple input blending DI (and TRS to Y cable) if you want to "sit in" at a gig... (Of which I maintain the Zoom A3, which can be battery operated would be the best choice). With the Lyric on the tip of course, you always have the option of just using the Lyric for a quick setup. But like you said, they can be tricky to EQ.

I am however coming from the get-the-best-tone you can perspective, regardless of cost and amount of gear...In which case, this system beats the Anthem, imho.

Now... having said all this... I am over Lyrics and Anthems and everything else, and now consider the Trance Audio Amulet the best pickup (I just ordered another one today)...

....But I had to get the story of my-previous-best-acosutic-pickup (Lyric+UST) out there to you guys

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I spoke to Stephen Inglis once and he told me that he uses the Anthem plus the Lyric. Apparently he had the Anthem installed with the tru-mic and then added a Lyric as well. According to him, the added Lyric really fattens up the high strings and gives them an added presence. It goes to show that experimentation can lead to great results!

Wow, now that is next level. Sounds intruiging, would like to hear it!

[Petty1818]

Absolutely, I completely understand the reasoning behind this set up! This is actually the first time I have had an Element in my guitar but I have heard them live before. I do prefer the Fishman but I find that with UST's, it's really, really difficult to hear massive differences in tone.

I too am very interested in the Amulet M. I got the Anthem SL because of the fact that I know it somewhat well, it's easy to find, many luthiers have installed them and they are "plug and play". For my next install, I will definitely be getting the Amulet M.

[otavio]

A nice "dual system" should be Matrix Infinity + Aura.

Guitar w/ Fishman outting 2 copied signals:

1 - Go to Aura 100% Blend(Right image)
2 - Pure UST sound.


Blend them togheter with separated EQ...


Too much work for nothing ?!

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by otavio

A nice "dual system" should be Matrix Infinity + Aura.

Guitar w/ Fishman outting 2 copied signals:

1 - Go to Aura 100% Blend(Right image)
2 - Pure UST sound.


Blend them togheter with separated EQ...


Too much work for nothing ?!

I don't really understand how this would be better than the Fishman straight into the Aura? The reason for the Aura is to achieve a more natural tone with little to no piezo quack. Adding in a dry UST signal seems a bit counter productive.

Out of curiosity though, how exactly are you getting a dry signal and an aura signal? The Fishman system would have one mono output jack so I am just trying to understand how this would work.

[otavio]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I don't really understand how this would be better than the Fishman straight into the Aura? The reason for the Aura is to achieve a more natural tone with little to no piezo quack. Adding in a dry UST signal seems a bit counter productive.

Out of curiosity though, how exactly are you getting a dry signal and an aura signal? The Fishman system would have one mono output jack so I am just trying to understand how this would work.

But the dry signal will be EQ, leaving all the air and bright sound with blended signal.


I will ´´duplicate´´ the signal with a Genz Benz 150lt, puting it in the Channel 1 and outting the unballaced(No eq) signal into Aura an outting again to Channel 2.

With 2 independent EQ.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by otavio

But the dry signal will be EQ, leaving all the air and bright sound with blended signal.


I will ´´duplicate´´ the signal with a Genz Benz 150lt, puting it in the Channel 1 and outting the unballaced(No eq) signal into Aura an outting again to Channel 2.

With 2 independent EQ.

Oh gotcha, I thought you were saying that you somehow had a stereo blend coming out of the output jack. I am not sure I would use "air" to describe a dry UST signal. It sounds neat but I am still not sure what it's really accomplishing. I would think that the magic in that set up is just having a stereo effect.

[Doug Young]

When the Lyric came out, I tried it with several other pickups, and I posted examples with K&K and Sunrise, if I recall. I didn't try any USTs, because generally I don't care for most of them, and therefore don't have any. But they could work. Personally, I'd just skip the Lyric in this type of setup and use a traditional electret mic, and pair it with whatever you like. I've been using DPA 4061s, as well as a few other mics and being able to EQ and process them separately works great. I currently have 4 different setups I use, but all are based on a pickup+mic, and each works quite well, even while each sounds a bit different. The basic approach of combining a good-sounding pickup with a very good sounding mic works great. If the Lyric provides the mic sound you want, that could work too.

[se7ent7]

Doug the fact that you aren't using the (very feedback resistant) Lyric in your setups as the mic source speaks volumes. In my opinion the TruMic has a very distinctive sound across setups and acoustics - I'm fairly confident of identifying Lyric/Anthem tones in a blindfold tests...

Having said that, if you spend enough time with any pickup system, you'll learn it's inherent and signature sound. The TruMic is just kind of in-your-face after a while.. It's overly alive and cutting, and can be thin.

Ok, so you guys are seeing I'm turning here..I wanted to make this thread before I don't have the heart for it anymore, because the truth is I'm quite over the TruMic (Lyric/Anthem) sound - but until recently I was quite enamoured with it. Many people will still love it, and may find this Lyric+UST setup helpful for improving on an Anthem.

For me now, Trance Audio Amulet all the way. I thought I'd miss a microphone component, but after some A-B tests against an external mic, I've found the amulet to be more than adequate. It actually favourably competes with a SM57 when you EQ it right (and use a light high quality reverb).

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Absolutely, I completely understand the reasoning behind this set up! This is actually the first time I have had an Element in my guitar but I have heard them live before. I do prefer the Fishman but I find that with UST's, it's really, really difficult to hear massive differences in tone.

I too am very interested in the Amulet M. I got the Anthem SL because of the fact that I know it somewhat well, it's easy to find, many luthiers have installed them and they are "plug and play". For my next install, I will definitely be getting the Amulet M.

Indeed, USTs all have that distinguishing (crappy) sound, a dime a dozen really. I just hear strings. What do people expect from a piece of polymer plastic under pressure beneath a guitar's saddle?

Yeah Petty, you should really try the Amulet M. Be warned, as you probably have already, that the install/tweaking/EQing may be finicky, but the end-result will be amazing!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by se7ent7

Doug the fact that you aren't using the (very feedback resistant) Lyric in your setups as the mic source speaks volumes.

The Lyric can sound really good, depending on the guitar. But to me, I think of it as an SBT, not a "mic", because it doesn't act like a traditional mic. It doesn't add "air" in the same way that a real mic adds. I think it's a marvelous pickup, a breakthru in the "sounds just like my guitar" department, but I don't view it as a good "add a mic" option, partly due to the setup - the required electronics, putting the other source on the 2nd channel and so on. It's not designed to be a 2nd source.

Although I experiment with lots of pickups, I'd prefer to have the guitars I actually use amplified to have similar setups, so I don't have to jump thru too many hoops with the rest of the signal chain. So settling on a primary pickup with a condenser mic on channel 2 along with a preamp that powers that mic, creates a simple consistent system. So that's part of my decisions - if I used the Lyric in one guitar, I'd have to totally change my preamp setup when I switch guitars. With the setups I use, I have different primary pickups, different internal mics, but they're all basically the same as far as the way they interact with the rest of my signal chain.

[guitaniac]

I've been experimenting with UST/Lyric combo for a few weeks now. The Anthem SL rig in another guitar remains unthreatened, however. Its still more useful for quick plug-n-play situations.

On Tuesday night I ran sound for a guy with a single-source Lyric in his OM sized Eastman guitar. It sounded so nice that I'm tempted to drill another hole in my Eastman's tail block and try the Lyric in it. (I already have a Wavelength UST system in that guitar.)

I don't doubt Doug's comment that the Lyric seems more compatible with some guitars than others. I'm having to apply industrial strength EQ with the Samick OM that its in now. While heavy EQ does the job in the Samick's case, I doubt that dialing in a good Lyric tone is that challenging with most guitars. With my Samick/Lyric rig, I can turn the Lyric's presence control all the way up and still be way too boomy on the low end.

[se7ent7]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

I've been experimenting with UST/Lyric combo for a few weeks now. The Anthem SL rig in another guitar remains unthreatened, however. Its still more useful for quick plug-n-play situations.

On Tuesday night I ran sound for a guy with a single-source Lyric in his OM sized Eastman guitar. It sounded so nice that I'm tempted to drill another hole in my Eastman's tail block and try the Lyric in it. (I already have a Wavelength UST system in that guitar.)

I don't doubt Doug's comment that the Lyric seems more compatible with some guitars than others. I'm having to apply industrial strength EQ with the Samick OM that its in now. While heavy EQ does the job in the Samick's case, I doubt that dialing in a good Lyric tone is that challenging with most guitars. With my Samick/Lyric rig, I can turn the Lyric's presence control all the way up and still be way too boomy on the low end.

Hmmmm yes, the differences in guitars is something we sometimes forget.. Getting a good guitar/pickup fit that one is happy with is something not to be taken for granted.

[Tico]

I'm considering a Lyric for two of my guitars, a Taylor Big Baby and a 1976 Guild D-55.
Can anyone comment on whether these are the type of guitars the Lyric would work well in?

FWIW, I hate the plasticky honking quack of piezo.
My goal is an internal pick up that sounds as much as possible like an external fine studio mic.

I've listened to several Youtube videos comparing various pickups to a real external mic.
To me the Lyric sounds the closest to a real external mic.

Yesterday I had someone recommend the B-Band pickup but can't find videos with A-B comparison to a decent external mic.

Help.