Tight Waverlies...

[PhilQ]

Hey folks

Bought a brand new set of Waverlies for a build, they seem fine out of the box, but when the strings are on, a couple of them are as hard to turn as on a crappy old guitar with bad tuners. You'd think I'm one octave too high and that the string is about to snap. Any clue what's happening? Holes are the proper size and are (suppposed to be) on center...

[Tom West]

Take the tight ones off and try them. If they are back to being OK then I would think something is wrong with your holes......non-concentric etc.
I know folks have had problems with Waves after using lubrication. But you did not oil them................................??
Tom

[PhilQ]

Originally Posted by Tom West

Take the tight ones off and try them. If they are back to being OK then I would think something is wrong with your holes......non-concentric etc.
I know folks have had problems with Waves after using lubrication. But you did not oil them................................??
Tom

No oil, no... I clamped the headstock when I drilled the two different sized holes... Maybe the holes got a little wonky when I cleaned the lacquer out of them. If so, they are VERY finicky!

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Tom West

I know folks have had problems with Waves after using lubrication. But you did not oil them................................??
Tom

Interesting and strange. Can you elaborate??

[Arthur Blake]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

Interesting and strange. Can you elaborate??

As I understand it there are two (2) potential problems with lubricating Waverlies.

1) There are plastic bushings which can be damaged by the wrong petroleum based carrier

2) Loctite secures the retaining and adjustment collar, that could be loosened by lubricant

3) (I know, #3) - The brass pinion gear is impregnated with lubricant. According to the manufacturer they are permanently lubricated and require no additional.
~~~~~~~~~
I do find it odd that Stew Mac illustrates their pinpoint Tri-Flow lubricant dispenser with Waverlies, but "no lubricant required" is their official proclamation.

[Tom West]

Ned: I have not witnessed this but apparently the Waves have a synthetic washer or washers that seem to be affected by lubricant. Lube them and they seem to bind up. Stew-Mac may have a handle on this by now. I also think the Waves have a packing nut arrangement to hold this washer in place so one has to own or make the wrench that may give some relief to the problem.
Tom
Just noticed that Arthur got there before me, better answer too. During my time as a machinist there was a bronze alloy called oilite that was impregnated with oil that would seep out of the bronze as it was turned. This was used mainly for bearings that may not get lubricated so if the bearing heated a bit there was lubricant. Assume the Wave worm wheel gear may be made from similar material requiring no lubricant and thus they could use the washer with out worry. A lot of guessing on my part.

[Ned Milburn]

Thanks Arthur and Tom.

That makes sense.

I am getting my first set of Schaller Grand Tune series classical tuners soon. I'll likely try the steel string version soon as well on some of my guitars. They advertised as using no polymer coating on the gears.

I was told by 2 metal shop masters that brass gears needn't be lubricated. I'm not a metal master myself, but brass does indeed seem to have unique properties and so that characteristic falls in place with my limited empirical experience with the alloy.

Nice to know that some tuners should last a lifetime whether they are lubricated or not, because someone in the lifetime of an instrument will likely lubricate them at some point.

[Frank Ford]

Waverly tuners are precisely machined. They are so precise, in fact, that they tend to bind if there's any misalignment in mounting. For the mandolin and three-on-strip tuners, that generally means hole spacing. For the individual guitar tuners, the problem can be "perpendicularity." If the post hole isn't perpendicular to the back of the headstock, things can get mighty tight. Sometimes you can get relief by trading places, i.e., switching first for third - that kind of thing. Occasionally I've seen difficulty if the spacing of the mounting screws isn't dead center.

[John Arnold]

Make sure the tuners are not tight when unmounted. Stew Mac has been known to send the tuners out with too much tension on the collar, which is tightened to compensate for future wear of the plastic washers.
Readjusting the collar requires disassembly, cleaning the threads with acetone, and reassembling with fresh Loctite. Do not lose the inner plastic washer.
AFAIK, the crown gear on Waverly tuners is plain bronze with no oilite treatment. The worm is stainless steel, so no lube is necessary on the gear teeth.

[Tom West]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

AFAIK, the crown gear on Waverly tuners is plain bronze with no oilite treatment. The worm is stainless steel, so no lube is necessary on the gear teeth.

John: This makes more sense then me suggesting Oilite for the wormwheel as
Oilite is a sintered bronze which provides space to hold oil. Not a good material for gearing. Thought of this last night in bed. Too long away from the machine shop and these things slip away...............same as the names of the faces of folks you knew long ago.
Tom

[rogthefrog]

I've tried a few very nice guitars with Waverlys, and the tuners were always incredibly tight.

I don't understand why people like them so much. The first thing I'd do if I had a guitar with Waverlys is replace the tuners.

[PhilQ]

Thanks for all your input.

I removed the tuners and they seemed fine off of the guitar. I then made sure the bushings/ferrules were seated evenly and all the way down, then used a 1/4 inch bit and inserted it through the bushing and made sure the hole was reamed properly through the bushing. Well, a couple tuners are still tight when installed. Talk about close tolerances. Not sure what to do now... I can actually see the post move back and forth a small amount when it turns.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by PhilQ

Thanks for all your input.

I removed the tuners and they seemed fine off of the guitar. I then made sure the bushings/ferrules were seated evenly and all the way down, then used a 1/4 inch bit and inserted it through the bushing and made sure the hole was reamed properly through the bushing. Well, a couple tuners are still tight when installed. Talk about close tolerances. Not sure what to do now... I can actually see the post move back and forth a small amount when it turns.

If it is going back and forth as it turns, it is likely bent somehow. I haven't dissected Waverly's before, but sometimes with tuners the shaft, or more commonly, a bolt holding the gear in position gets bent. You should be able to see any eccentricity in the rotation of the post even if you turn it while the machine heads are off of the guitar.

[PhilQ]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

If it is going back and forth as it turns, it is likely bent somehow. I haven't dissected Waverly's before, but sometimes with tuners the shaft, or more commonly, a bolt holding the gear in position gets bent. You should be able to see any eccentricity in the rotation of the post even if you turn it while the machine heads are off of the guitar.

I don't see it off the guitar, actually... puzzling

[Tom West]

Phil: Stew-Mac are very good at replacement if there is a problem. Discuss it with them, I'm quite sure you will get some help.
Tom