Guitars and Airlines

[HDRider]

Originally Posted by jt1

Thanks. I'm a law professor in my day job and understand how this works.

The only reason I brought it up was because I didn't see that caveat in the article. Apologies if I missed it.

[min7b5]

I've done hundreds of flight on Southwest with my Santa Cruz. Never once had a problem, or didn't get it into the overhead. I won't fly any other airline, often meaning I'm adding a connection when gigging across the country.

[Orfeas]

Originally Posted by jt1

I travel extensively, both within the US and internationally, with a guitar.

Here's my article for Fretboard Journal about the governing law and airline-by-airline boarding policies.

Nice article John. Thanks for pointing out a simple fact (FAA regulations is for U.S. domestic flights and for U.S. airlines) that many guitar players misinterpreting quite often. I have witnessed a couple of arguments in Lufthansa when guitar players attempted to illustrate the FAA law on instruments to their gate employees. It did not went well.

[erhino41]

Originally Posted by Yrksman

Having flown literally hundreds of times with guitars my one piece of advice to add is NEVER EVER ASK AT CHECK IN IF YOU CAN CARRY YOUR GUITAR ON BOARD!

Just keep going unless and until somebody tries to stop you. If you can get to the door of the plane you have a much better than 90% chance that you will be OK. I recently flew from JFK to London in a 747 with BA and I carried a guitar and a banjo on board both in hard cases. The extremely helpful flight attendants put the guitar in a closet at the front and the banjo in one at the rear. I never asked anybody I just arrived at the plane door with them.

+1 for this. I just treat is as carry on and head straight for the gate with it. I have been told that I need to check it, I simply tell them that I will not check it. I haven't had to check one yet.

[jt1]

Originally Posted by HDRider

The only reason I brought it up was because I didn't see that caveat in the article. Apologies if I missed it.

No worries.

But, the next time that you see your friend, you might want to advise him that he does not have unfettered discretion to refuse passengers and/or their property. First, § 251.3 of the governing regulation provides, “Each covered carrier shall permit a passenger to carry a violin, guitar, or other small musical instrument in the aircraft cabin, without charging the passenger a fee in addition to any standard fee that carrier may require for comparable carry-on baggage, if: (a) The instrument can be stowed safely in a suitable baggage compartment in the aircraft cabin or under a passenger seat, in accordance with the requirements for carriage of carry-on baggage or cargo established by the FAA; and (b) There is space for such stowage at the time the passenger boards the aircraft.” My emphasis.

Second, yes, Title 49 , section §44902(b) of The United States Code provides that “an air carrier … may refuse to transport a passenger or property the carrier decides is or might be inimical to safety.”

Third, the FAA has issued an opinion that “there is no legal precedent for a pilot’s unfettered discretion in exercising this authority on behalf of the air carrier. The air carrier, and thus the pilot, is required to make a reasonable decision based on the facts presented.” Moreover, the pilot’s decision “must be reasonable and may be questioned and reviewed. If it is found to be arbitrary or capricious, liability can attach.”

I travel with copies of the relevant statutes, regulations, and FAA opinion letters. I once needed to refer to them (nicely) when a flight crew - attendants and pilot - refused to allow me to board the plane without checking to see whether there was space in the overhead bins for my guitar. I prevailed.

[Pura Vida]

Originally Posted by jt1

No worries.

But, the next time that you see your friend, you might want to advise him that he does not have unfettered discretion to refuse passengers and/or their property. First, § 251.3 of the governing regulation provides, “Each covered carrier shall permit a passenger to carry a violin, guitar, or other small musical instrument in the aircraft cabin, without charging the passenger a fee in addition to any standard fee that carrier may require for comparable carry-on baggage, if: (a) The instrument can be stowed safely in a suitable baggage compartment in the aircraft cabin or under a passenger seat, in accordance with the requirements for carriage of carry-on baggage or cargo established by the FAA; and (b) There is space for such stowage at the time the passenger boards the aircraft.” My emphasis.

Second, yes, Title 49 , section §44902(b) of The United States Code provides that “an air carrier … may refuse to transport a passenger or property the carrier decides is or might be inimical to safety.”

Third, the FAA has issued an opinion that “there is no legal precedent for a pilot’s unfettered discretion in exercising this authority on behalf of the air carrier. The air carrier, and thus the pilot, is required to make a reasonable decision based on the facts presented.” Moreover, the pilot’s decision “must be reasonable and may be questioned and reviewed. If it is found to be arbitrary or capricious, liability can attach.”

I travel with copies of the relevant statutes, regulations, and FAA opinion letters. I once needed to refer to them (nicely) when a flight crew - attendants and pilot - refused to allow me to board the plane without checking to see whether there was space in the overhead bins for my guitar. I prevailed.

This. I only had one problem, last October on United, where the gate staff tried to stop another guitarist and myself from boarding with our instruments (she wanted to gate check them). I was carrying a printout of the regulations, politely explained that the law permitted them, as long as they fit into the overhead compartments and there was room to do so, and I proceeded onto the plane before she continued her argument. Once on board, the flight attendants were completely fine with me placing my dread case overhead.

I had one other instance, where I had to gate check my case for a puddle jumper, where most of the carry-on luggage didn't fit overhead. Otherwise, it's been smooth flying. I have a Gator TSA dread case, and I bring a backpack, which I keep at my feet (laptop, iPad, water bottle, etc.).

[Pura Vida]

Oh, and SW Airlines has always been guitar-friendly, including regular international flights to Costa Rica. I've been on flights with 3-4 guitars, and we all fit. One nice thing about SW --- their planes are mostly the same size, which means that the guitars always fit in the overhead bins.

And as others have mentioned, pay for the good boarding assignment, so you improve your odds.

[HDRider]

Originally Posted by jt1

But, the next time that you see your friend, you might want to advise him that he does not have unfettered discretion to refuse passengers and/or their property.

I'm sure you believe that.

He's quite certain he can.

He's the 27-year four-striper. I'll believe him.

I travel with copies of the relevant statutes, regulations, and FAA opinion letters. I once needed to refer to them (nicely) when a flight crew - attendants and pilot - refused to allow me to board the plane without checking to see whether there was space in the overhead bins for my guitar. I prevailed.

I would suggest you're in a very small minority.

I've seen people pull out the "regs" on traveling with musical instruments in a not so polite manner, thinking they could not be denied.

I've seen pilots crumple up the sheet of paper, throw it away, and have the passenger removed from his ship.

Bottom line? If the pilot says no, the answer is no, and no piece of paper you pull out of your pocket is going to change that.

[jt1]

Originally Posted by HDRider

Bottom line? If the pilot says no, the answer is no, and no piece of paper you pull out of your pocket is going to change that.

Oh, I quite agree. But, the statutes, regulations, FAA, and court decisions are on my side. I win, eventually.

And, on edit: Regardless decorations on sleeves, I'm not a fan of folks who eagerly violate clearly expressed laws.

[Yrksman]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

I'd be curious to know how large your guitar was. I've seen folks do this with smaller instruments and electric guitars.

Hi Toby

It was a McAlister Nick Lucas in an Ameritage OM sized case, so relatively big and heavy.

[Yrksman]

Duplicate post sorry

[kaos]

I see people traveling with gs-minis in the original soft taylor gig bag. And the first thought that comes to mind is other people forcing their over-sized carry on against the neck of the guitar.

[zhunter]

Always has to be one. I had a problem with Southwest at the check in. Threats were made by the counter person. They said gate check would not be allowed and I would be sent off the plane. I told them I was willing to take my chances. Got in the plane, stowed the guitar and no further questions were asked. But it was close and it was Southwest. At least two other airlines have forced gate checks.

Got on with one more times than not but ya takes your chances.

hunter

[billder99]

I just flew last week. Make sure you travel with a good hardside case. At the gate, check in early and tell them you have a "planeside checkin". When you go down to the plane, talk to the guys and ask them to be gentle. Your guitar will be last in, first out... you pick it up on the tarmac right outside the plane.

It was all well done. I watched like a hawk... the guys were respectful of peoples bags, and especially of my guitar, both departing and arriving.

[OnTheFidele]

Never had a problem with any domestic airline.

The first thing I do when I travel with my guitar is to take my guitar to the gate (never had anyone ask me about it. Then I go to the desk at the gate and tell them that I have a guitar for a "gate check-in". These are mostly used for parents with young children checking in their strollers. They've always given me a red tag to put on the guitar, along with a receipt.

All I have to do then is wait until my boarding time and place the guitar just outside the entrance to the plane. The loaders will then take it and place it in the cargo bay. I usually tell a flight attendant that I have checked in my guitar at the gate and they will make sure it is loaded.

Once the flight is over (or during a transfer) I wait just outside the entrance of the plane until the loaders bring my guitar back up.

Of course, this is a safe option only if you have a hard case.

Hope this helps.