jam group etiquette

[thestubbyone]

I have been playing with various jam groups over the years, some small and informai, others open to the public. Now I dont know how this fits in with the way you think but I share the following. I like to introduce uncommon songs that are easy to play that may have been hits before but appear to be forgotten. I have noticed over the years when I introduce a new song to a group, someone in the group sometimes, but rarely, will play and perform the same song at the next jam we meet. Now I have always taken the position when I hear a song I like from a jam group, I may learn it and perform other places but I dont do it in front of the group with the person who introduced me to the song the prior week. I do that because he might want to perform it. I just feel like I am stealing the guys idea, although I know its just a cover song and nobody owns any rights except the songwriter.

Years ago I was in a small jam group that starting doing gigs. I was one of 2 lead singers. When jamming sometimes I would introduce a new song to the group for maybe future performance. Sometimes the next week, the other lead singer would take the song, maybe change the key, and decide he would perform it with the groups back up with no discussion about it all. Is there something wrong there or am I being too sensitive.

Now I know, I do it myself, when I hear a nice song at an open mic, or jam I will learn it and perform it other places. I know that.

[Brent Hahn]

Yeah, maybe a little sensitive. I'd say it's nice to know you've been noticed in a positive way.

[The Bard Rocks]

Regard it as a compliment.

[thestubbyone]

yes, I do like it when someone picks up a song I have introduced. But it certainly isn't the same as if I wrote it. At the jams we share what we know and if you can help somebody its a good feeling.

[Mandobart]

Yeah, there are lot of points of jam etiquette out there. I've been going to several jams a week for over 15 years. This issue ("stealing" another player's cover tune) has never come up.

Now some cover/common tunes have a bunch of variants and introducing a different version than previously introduced can cause confusion. A couple examples:

- playing Guy Clark's version of L.A. Freeway after the jam has already been ruined by Jerry Jeff Walker's cover

- Trying to play the traditional bluegrass version of Been All Around This World after folks are already used to the Dead version, or worse, the ponderously slow folkie version.

There's no reason for a jam participant to adopt a feeling of "ownership" for a song they didn't write, especially if it's trad or in the public domain.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by thestubbyone

I have been playing with various jam groups over the years, some small and informai, others open to the public. Now I dont know how this fits in with the way you think but I share the following. I like to introduce uncommon songs that are easy to play that may have been hits before but appear to be forgotten. I have noticed over the years when I introduce a new song to a group, someone in the group sometimes, but rarely, will play and perform the same song at the next jam we meet. Now I have always taken the position when I hear a song I like from a jam group, I may learn it and perform other places but I dont do it in front of the group with the person who introduced me to the song the prior week. I do that because he might want to perform it. I just feel like I am stealing the guys idea, although I know its just a cover song and nobody owns any rights except the songwriter.

Years ago I was in a small jam group that starting doing gigs. I was one of 2 lead singers. When jamming sometimes I would introduce a new song to the group for maybe future performance. Sometimes the next week, the other lead singer would take the song, maybe change the key, and decide he would perform it with the groups back up with no discussion about it all. Is there something wrong there or am I being too sensitive.

Now I know, I do it myself, when I hear a nice song at an open mic, or jam I will learn it and perform it other places. I know that.

I think I would probably feel much the same as you. I agree with you that covers are hardly anyone's property (aside from the composers'), so you don't "own" it in that sense.

At the same time, if you turn up at a jam planning to sing that song again, and someone gets up and does it before you (having got the idea from you previously). they've essentially robbed you of one of your set. You have to re-organise.

Personally, I'd say the etiquette would be for them to see you first, and say they are planning to sing the song themselves, do you mind?
E.g., if it was the other way round, and you heard a great song at a jam and decided you wanted to do your own version next time - at the same jam - I suspect, if you saw the guy that did it first time, you might go up to him and ask if he minded you doing it. And then if he says "well I was planning to do it again tonight", then you would not do it. Right? Unless he said, "No that's fine, go for it!" Or - like you say - you would just make a point of not doing it at that jam - in case of causing offence (however unlikely) - and save it for another.

I mean, in one sense, it's silly to get too offended by it. Its just one of the risks of jam sessions you have to prepare for. You can't get jealous about a rare cover you've "discovered". The whole point of jam sessions - after all - is surely that you all share stuff? Anyone should be free (in principle) to join in with anyone else.

That's assuming that there is a difference between "jam session" and "open mic", as you see it. For me, an open mic is much more about each performer doing their own thing, and if they want any collaboration, they'd ask. At a jam session, there would be more expectation that anyone that knows the song could join in. At an open mic, that would be impolite if you weren't asked. (The exception would be a crowd joining in singing on a well-known chorus; few open mic performers ought to object to that.)

IME - here in the UK and Ireland - the difference between "open mic" and "jam session" is often signalled by how the event is organised. An open mic tends to have a stage (or at least a performance area) and a PA. A jam session is where everyone sits around in a circle, no stage, no PA. Individual performers still take turns to do their thing, but from where they are sitting; and anyone else is welcome to join in, if they are able.
In the latter scenario, it would expected that if you introduced a new song, that others would be likely to want to lead it themselves next time. In a sense the whole point of you introducing it is to share it with the group.
In the case of the open mic, it's more understandable that you want a song you've found to become part of your personal repertoire, to help define you as a performer different from the others.

[lowrider]

'' playing Guy Clark's version of L.A. Freeway after the jam has already been ruined by Jerry Jeff Walker's cover''

Mano, are you crazy, I love Jerry Jeff's version, but my jam group is more of an acoustic rock&roll group than a folkie group. Even my one old friend who played in Greenwich Village in the glory days played a Meatloaf song recently.

But anyway, I think this is really rude. I go to another group and there is another woman there who plays and sings very quietly but nicely. She did a song like ''The Red River Valley'' and it was nice and simple. The next person going around the circle was a fiddle player, who didn't contribute a note to her song. Then he did the same song, fiddling and singing. It was like he just wanted to show her up.

When something like that happened with my group, I talked to the guy after and told him that we don't need to show anyone up.

Jam group offenses that I can think of;

singing over the person doing the song,

pushing the pace,

showing some up

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by thestubbyone

I have been playing with various jam groups over the years, some small and informai, others open to the public. Now I dont know how this fits in with the way you think but I share the following. I like to introduce uncommon songs that are easy to play that may have been hits before but appear to be forgotten. I have noticed over the years when I introduce a new song to a group, someone in the group sometimes, but rarely, will play and perform the same song at the next jam we meet. Now I have always taken the position when I hear a song I like from a jam group, I may learn it and perform other places but I dont do it in front of the group with the person who introduced me to the song the prior week. I do that because he might want to perform it. I just feel like I am stealing the guys idea, although I know its just a cover song and nobody owns any rights except the songwriter.

Years ago I was in a small jam group that starting doing gigs. I was one of 2 lead singers. When jamming sometimes I would introduce a new song to the group for maybe future performance. Sometimes the next week, the other lead singer would take the song, maybe change the key, and decide he would perform it with the groups back up with no discussion about it all. Is there something wrong there or am I being too sensitive.

Now I know, I do it myself, when I hear a nice song at an open mic, or jam I will learn it and perform it other places. I know that.

I had a somewhat similar thing happen to me at a jam I have been going to off and on for the past 13-14 years or so.

There is a song I like to play at most of the jams. There is one fellow there who has not so nicely criticized me for playing the song asking if I plan to play it this time and making similar barbs, saying it was "my" song. Some jams I wouldn't play it if he made the comment.

Recently at the jam he proceeded to play "my" song and he didn't nod his head to me to play the intro which I play pretty accurately I think. OK ... I don't own the song but the thing is when it came time to the break(s) instead of nodding for me he directed a newcomer to play. She played some nonsense in the wrong key I think and it was in a style totally inconsistent with the song. He never once glanced my way to give me the chance to play a break.

Yes I may be sensitive but I've had had continuing problems with this one player snubbing me for a long time.

I got so angry that for the first time in all of those years I got up after the song was finished (I never got a chance to play any breaks) and left the jam. I doubt I will be going back because this guy is always there. And if I do I will call out the guy in public and that isn't the right thing to do at what is supposed to be a "fun" jam.

I've talked to the jam leader about the problem and just have been told the jam leader didn't think it was intended. But after what happened at the last jam I don't think it was not intended to be an insult to me.

[rllink]

It really depends on the group. I play on the weekends with a small group. It is a close group, several of us socialize together outside the jam. Everybody knows each other and some of us get together and do the senior center circuit. So sometimes a song becomes community property. One person will play it a couple times and then someone else might want to try their hand at it. No problem, were all friends.

But I've jammed with groups where I don't know the people very well, and some of the stuff we say and do at the one jam probably wouldn't go over very well at the other. There's some good natured trash talking that goes on at the one that would be considered offensive at the other. Reactions are different. The rules of etiquette are not the same. So hard to pass judgement on who should do what at any particular jam.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by thestubbyone

I have been playing with various jam groups over the years, some small and informai, others open to the public. Now I dont know how this fits in with the way you think but I share the following. I like to introduce uncommon songs that are easy to play that may have been hits before but appear to be forgotten. I have noticed over the years when I introduce a new song to a group, someone in the group sometimes, but rarely, will play and perform the same song at the next jam we meet.

Now I have always taken the position when I hear a song I like from a jam group, I may learn it and perform other places but I dont do it in front of the group with the person who introduced me to the song the prior week. I do that because he might want to perform it.

That makes sense. Good etiquette. Some people at jams only know a few songs and just play them over and over. As long as they make it sound good, it's fun.

Originally Posted by thestubbyone

I just feel like I am stealing the guys idea, although I know its just a cover song and nobody owns any rights except the songwriter.

Yup. I don't mind stealing songs (all artists are thieves), but I don't want to steal another player's thunder.

Originally Posted by thestubbyone

Years ago I was in a small jam group that starting doing gigs. I was one of 2 lead singers. When jamming sometimes I would introduce a new song to the group for maybe future performance. Sometimes the next week, the other lead singer would take the song, maybe change the key, and decide he would perform it with the groups back up with no discussion about it all. Is there something wrong there or am I being too sensitive.

No, you're not. Getting tunes hijacked is annoying, to say the least. One of the reasons I quit a band last year was that when I didn't play a song like the record, the band leader would just take it over to do it the "right" way. Boring!

Originally Posted by thestubbyone

Now I know, I do it myself, when I hear a nice song at an open mic, or jam I will learn it and perform it other places. I know that.

Sure, we all do that. But whether it's a jam group or a band, we should each be able to play the songs we bring in.

I play with a guy who likes my originals enough that he likes playing some of them himself, and since he's a good singer, I like it when he does. But he always asks first.

[lowrider]

I did ''Smuggler's Blues'' at my jam group a couple of months ago and last month another guy who's a much better player did it. He introduced it by saying that I had done it but he was going to try it another way. His new version was like a slow blues shuffle and while his singing and playing was great, I thought it lacked the drive that I had tried to keep from the original. When you're killing people, breaking all kinds of laws, and running drugs there should be some urgency

So, if he wants to keep doing it, I'll just let it go. I didn't plan to keep doing it anyway. I used to play with a group where more than half the songs that we did were the same every time. This worked out well because everyone got to know the songs. In that case I think the songs do belong to the person who leads them. I wouldn't want to stand up and do something that someone else has been doing before.

99.9% of people come out to enjoy themselves and share some music. It's unfortunate when someone just doesn't know how to get along.

[thestubbyone]

Thanks for all the replies! I don't feel so stupid now. Music for me is to share and I think that song possession gets in the way of that. i tend to get really absorbed in a few songs, and concentrate how to do them, often a little different. So when I show up at my jam group and someone plays it because they know it now and i played it last week, it bothered me. I wanted to play it in my revised version! The same song a month or two later, and usually I have moved on and forgotten about it. Then once in a great while there's a song that becomes part of my vocabulary and I always can feel like playing it. But thats rare. .....

[thestubbyone]

And one more thing. If somebody shows up at my jam group and plays a cool song, I would never the next time do the song without discussing it with the person who brought the song. I dont know, I just wouldn't feel right about it. I have that situation right now with an old song by Sam Cooke. I love the song but the next time we meet, I am going to ask the person to do it again, and ask if I can sing harmony with him when he does it.

[Mobilemike]

I try not to do this to other people, but I don’t really mind if people do songs that I introduce to a jam. It gives me a chance to hear another person’s take on the song, which can be cool, and it’s a compliment if someone likes a song you introduce enough to learn it.

I also try to see it as an opportunity to play something new - if someone else plays one of my go-to songs, then it’s an opportunity for me to do something different and maybe cool.

[lowrider]

Originally Posted by thestubbyone

And one more thing. If somebody shows up at my jam group and plays a cool song, I would never the next time do the song without discussing it with the person who brought the song. I dont know, I just wouldn't feel right about it. I have that situation right now with an old song by Sam Cooke. I love the song but the next time we meet, I am going to ask the person to do it again, and ask if I can sing harmony with him when he does it.

I'm with you on this. I think the person in you original post was an a**-h***. Don't let him ruin your fun. That's what this is supposed to be, not a contest of egos. If he wants to keep doing ''your'' song let it go for that group. If he grabs another one, then have a word with him about it.