Custom carbonfiber wood hybrid

[littlesmith]

[PeterF]

I really love what you are doing here! The guitars look and sound great to me. The guitar world needs more out of the box thinking like this.
Just a small point though. I understand these are prototypes, but you may want to work on your finishes a bit more if you consider using them to attract customers. It may sound unimportant, but you could make the best sounding guitar in the world but if it had a bad finish, it would be very unlikely to sell.
I love the rosettes btw

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by PeterF

I really love what you are doing here! The guitars look and sound great to me. The guitar world needs more out of the box thinking like this.
Just a small point though. I understand these are prototypes, but you may want to work on your finishes a bit more if you consider using them to attract customers. It may sound unimportant, but you could make the best sounding guitar in the world but if it had a bad finish, it would be very unlikely to sell.
I love the rosettes btw

Thank you!

You are right about the finishing, that is one of the reasons why i need the upcoming Kickstarter campaign to succeed, everything costs money and it all adds up so quickly. My absolute skeleton operation is 21000 euro, and that is me building at home by myself. To turn it into a real company in a space with people we are looking at 100k at the minimum. The real consumer instruments must be flawless in every way, including the finish. I can only keep moving foreward and hope people will like it. The supporters of the campaign will decide the quality level.

Btw, that white one is supposed to look like that, i am going for a "laying in the desert for 40 years" look. ^_^

[littlesmith]

Klijnsmit prototype 3 playing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQMM0iF49pM

-First mic recording with Klijnsmit instruments Hybrid prototype 3 (nylon string with modern neck width).

-Samson G track mic, no eq or fx.

-Sorry for the peaking in the middle, The sound projection surpassed my expectation.


-Still some fretbuzz on the low E that needs fixing.


-I`m a bassplayer and guitarbuilder, lol. I am telling myself for 10 years, some day i will learn chords on guitar.

[Minexploration]

Thanks for posting the link to the video... I have been following from the beginning. Really cool stuff I can't wait to see one beyond the prototype phase.

[BananasCentral]

Originally Posted by littlesmith

I only build and invent new stuff and i have never sold anything. ^_^ ...
being an inventor and never selling anything is not economical.

You said it all man !

[littlesmith]

[littlesmith]

Klijnsmit musical instruments update : Found a good guitar player for the Kickstarter movie, found a real sound engineer to perform spectrum analyse on the prototypes and a website will be built!

[littlesmith]

Peter playing Prototype 3 :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQhwcv-Q8x8

[RogerC]

While I admire your enthusiasm. You've got the cart waaaay before the horse here.

Regarding your comments about needing more money for nice finishes: It doesn't take more money, it takes more skill and patience. To be quite honest, you've invested in things like laser engraved steel nameplates when you could've been investing in more-necessary things. You're too caught up in the toys and the dream.

I understand. I've been working for the past 18 months or so toward a dream of a retail and production shop. My hour-long commute to my regular job was spent with me daydreaming and planning. I've been prototyping and producing products for retail stores. I've been building guitars for clients. I've been researching other revenue streams. I had all the details of how the shop would look, the products I'd carry, my manufacturing process, my employees, etc. The dream was so vivid that I almost convinced myself it was GOING to happen. It was such a cool idea there was no way it would fail.

Then I had a long talk with a good friend of mine who's a successful business man in town, and he talked to me as potential investors would. It soon became clear that my dream was going to have to remain just that-- a dream, at least for awhile longer. Even though I had great ideas, I was in no way prepared to approach investors, and my life isn't such that I can quit my full-time job to devote to the dream.

I'm not saying this to discourage you in any way, but you've got to take some big steps back and focus. You've not built a single guitar yet that's retail-ready, and you're not really offering anything new in the market place. Ovation has been building composite hybrid guitars for decades. Have you done any market research?

While I wish you luck, I don't expect you'll find much success in attracting investors. You don't spend capital wisely, and you appear to be quite impetuous. Not a good combination when you're asking people to give you money.

[J.R. Rogers]

Respectfully, I'm going to take a different perspective. CF guitars are hot in America right now but to my knowledge there are no companies in Europe doing these guitars on any kind of scale. The desire and need for more robust instrument exists but the only way to have this in Europe is to buy a custom one-off from the very small number of custom builders doing these or to import one from Ireland or the US. Also, I've come to understand that starting and building a business in the USA comes with certain realities that could be quite different from what is required in Europe. I hope that in 10 years time, littlesmith or someone like him with the passion for these instruments has figured out how to get a business off of the ground to equal or exceed the CF instruments that are readily available in the US.

JR

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by RogerC

While I admire your enthusiasm. You've got the cart waaaay before the horse here.

Regarding your comments about needing more money for nice finishes: It doesn't take more money, it takes more skill and patience. To be quite honest, you've invested in things like laser engraved steel nameplates when you could've been investing in more-necessary things. You're too caught up in the toys and the dream.

I understand. I've been working for the past 18 months or so toward a dream of a retail and production shop. My hour-long commute to my regular job was spent with me daydreaming and planning. I've been prototyping and producing products for retail stores. I've been building guitars for clients. I've been researching other revenue streams. I had all the details of how the shop would look, the products I'd carry, my manufacturing process, my employees, etc. The dream was so vivid that I almost convinced myself it was GOING to happen. It was such a cool idea there was no way it would fail.

Then I had a long talk with a good friend of mine who's a successful business man in town, and he talked to me as potential investors would. It soon became clear that my dream was going to have to remain just that-- a dream, at least for awhile longer. Even though I had great ideas, I was in no way prepared to approach investors, and my life isn't such that I can quit my full-time job to devote to the dream.

I'm not saying this to discourage you in any way, but you've got to take some big steps back and focus. You've not built a single guitar yet that's retail-ready, and you're not really offering anything new in the market place. Ovation has been building composite hybrid guitars for decades. Have you done any market research?

While I wish you luck, I don't expect you'll find much success in attracting investors. You don't spend capital wisely, and you appear to be quite impetuous. Not a good combination when you're asking people to give you money.

Hi.

I am doing a kickstarter with the hopes to finally start building. I have 3 working prototypes. The whole kickstarter process takes a about 6 months + 3 montsh guitar building time. During this time, i cant sell the prototypes and make more and keep enhancing the quality by repeating

Without money, you cant buy materials, so you can`t get to consumer quality. You have to start with a good mold. A diy mold is 1000 euro while a CNC aluminium mold is 10000. You are right in saying that a nice buffing station does not give a high gloss finish, you need skills. But having no polishing things at all doesnt give a good finish, thats for sure.

I have added all these costs up, to start as a way to passionate hobbyist it will cost 22000 to start. A real company in a rented space will costs 100000, and that is an operation withoyut employees. You speak of the retail quality norm, i hope you fully appreciate how much money you need to get there.

If i could i would take the risk on myself, but a loan should be your last option. Having said that, in some cases a private investor would be more expensive.

I must disagree without about having no innovation, because the Hybrid model has quite a few, like 0.6mm thick carbon bracings, embedded soundboard,

Ovation uses hand layd up fiberglass (source https://youtu.be/UWB22iSrD98?t=566). I will carbon fiber and fiber glass in an Aerospace grade epoxy matrix (approved for aviation by the german authoritys) with the infusioon method.

In reality every other company has nothing to do with me and i do not see them as competition. I believe the market place is large eneough for everybody that has passion. I choose to believe that the market will want true quality. That means the knock offs will fade away, and the innovaters will remain. I have this passion, i just don`t have any resources.

I know what to do, i just can`t do it, becasue i don`t have any money.

I am fighting for my dream, my greatest dream is to live in a nature rich area in a house without direct neighbours, free to play loud music at 3 o clock at night if i wanted. There i want to live without a mortgage and rent and build guitars to pursui a higher quality constantly. As you know dreams are expensive and the chances for winning the lotery are slim. Things like this are a fantasy or maybe a 20 year plan, for now i just wwant to start building.

Thats why will i keep trying things like crowdfunding, investors, grants untill sombody believes in the model and me. KFC was denied by 1000 restorants. If you had a long talk with a friend and you gave up, then it might not have been your true dream or passion. It took me 31 years to find out what i wanted with my life. Now that i know that i want to build gutiars full time , and can`t because i can`t afford materials is quite frustrating. If you look at the great entrepeneurs of our time, they have failed , a LOT. So i would say, don`t give, up, keep fighting. Offcourse if the business model is flawed, it would be unwise to pursui, who knows, your friend might be a genius. Every situation is different.

[printer2]

Maybe a CF instrument, but with a wood top it is not fish nor fowl. CF is a limited market already, narrowing down the market even more excluding those that want a guitar that survives where wood would not. I agree with much of what Roger has said. Used to work at an aerospace plant where they built composite parts. Also worked at a community college where students laid up their parts by hand so I have seen both ends of the craft and know you can do good work without needing a $$k mold.

Want to attract investors? Build one and sell it. Better yet, build ten and sell them. Show there is a market. And concentrate on one good product, not a whole line. Might even make it more salable if you put an electric option on it. You might have more luck if you get a few touring musicians interested in using it. You want to offer a better mouse trap for sale, but how is it better than the one's being sold right now?

[Lespaul123]

LittleSmith,

I am not in any position to talk about your business model, because mine stinks. However, I can speak about your process. I am a a life long woodworker, I also work in the aviation industry, as well as I am a guitar maker(who uses carbon fiber). My experience is telling me that you have a bunch to learn. Lets ignore quality for a second and talk about working the materials you have. For example how you glued on the fretboard. One clamping onto a raw finished part like you did is a no no. I don't care if it is a fretboard or a piece of trim, you just don't do this. You can damage the part, and those little rubber things on the clamps are never enough and are commonly covered in old glue anyway. Also if you want the fretboard to be flat, you should really use a caul (something flat to clamp against). You also do not mask off the fretboard when you are clamping it to protect it from the epoxy. Prototype or not, this is just careless. You have to spend the time to be able to learn as these types of things because on a larger scale , the results will be disastrous. Also when people see you doing these types of things they either think you are careless or inexperienced.

Aside of the woodworking stuff, I am seeing a similar approach to your composite work as well. Composites require even more planning and care that you seem to glaze over. Hypothetically if you had an aluminum mold, you would still have a lot of issues. In composites you have to plan everything out prior to even building the mold. All of the fixtures, the lay up schedule, the materials, etc. Then the mold is built to suite the production requirements. Thus far what you have spent in prototype materials, you could have built a very nice traditional mold that would have produced quality parts. I have done this personally on a college student`s budget with no issue. I think you are very capable for your endeavor. I would really like to see you produce a nice instrument with the aesthetic that this industry demands. I have been watching this thread closely hoping for this, but have seen you step into similar pitfalls through out your builds.

Just a side note, what you are trying to achieve is not new. I know of another custom builder who is doing exactly the same thing you are trying to achieve. (brunner-guitars). I am also doing something similar as well. The only reason I say this is because you have referred to yourself as an inventor.

[littlesmith]

Originally Posted by Lespaul123

LittleSmith,

I am not in any position to talk about your business model, because mine stinks. However, I can speak about your process. I am a a life long woodworker, I also work in the aviation industry, as well as I am a guitar maker(who uses carbon fiber). My experience is telling me that you have a bunch to learn. Lets ignore quality for a second and talk about working the materials you have. For example how you glued on the fretboard. One clamping onto a raw finished part like you did is a no no. I don't care if it is a fretboard or a piece of trim, you just don't do this. You can damage the part, and those little rubber things on the clamps are never enough and are commonly covered in old glue anyway. Also if you want the fretboard to be flat, you should really use a caul (something flat to clamp against). You also do not mask off the fretboard when you are clamping it to protect it from the epoxy. Prototype or not, this is just careless. You have to spend the time to be able to learn as these types of things because on a larger scale , the results will be disastrous. Also when people see you doing these types of things they either think you are careless or inexperienced.

Aside of the woodworking stuff, I am seeing a similar approach to your composite work as well. Composites require even more planning and care that you seem to glaze over. Hypothetically if you had an aluminum mold, you would still have a lot of issues. In composites you have to plan everything out prior to even building the mold. All of the fixtures, the lay up schedule, the materials, etc. Then the mold is built to suite the production requirements. Thus far what you have spent in prototype materials, you could have built a very nice traditional mold that would have produced quality parts. I have done this personally on a college student`s budget with no issue. I think you are very capable for your endeavor. I would really like to see you produce a nice instrument with the aesthetic that this industry demands. I have been watching this thread closely hoping for this, but have seen you step into similar pitfalls through out your builds.

Just a side note, what you are trying to achieve is not new. I know of another custom builder who is doing exactly the same thing you are trying to achieve. (brunner-guitars). I am also doing something similar as well. The only reason I say this is because you have referred to yourself as an inventor.

Hi, i never claimed i have invented a carbon body with a wooden top. i am simply stating no company is doing it on a scale larger then a solo builder (10+ per month). I mentioned some of my own innovations like bracings, that is how you express your personal taste as a builder. The character of the instrument reflects the character of the builder.

I see no fault in that picture where the clamp in directly on the fingerboard. That entire fingerboard was flattened after that and it lost almost a millimeter in the process, eleminating any potential dents. But i do agree with proper protocol and protecting your workpiece is indeed part of that. I get tunnelvision with these prototypes, and i just want to go go go, that can induce sloppyness and is a risk.

I agree about experience, but there is no way to build up experience if you are not building. In an ideal world i would have the space and materials to learn and grown untill i am conformtable with the quality level, and only after that, hit the market.

Such a luxury is not for me. Every year i have 600 euro to do something, nothing more... I can only do something once. One year you buy a machine, thius year i loaned some extra money and build prototypes. I have to pick my battles. I don`t speak about my situation much, becaue i dont want a pity party but i am on a welfare for a disorder, its only 900 per month. You cant do anything, you cant buy anything, no new clothing or going on vacation in 10 years. You cant make any mistakes on a carbon body for example or your investment is gone. I do not have the room to build up the experience, so even if the Kickstarter is a succes, i will build at least 5 new prototypes with the new tooling. If i am not mistaken, Mcpherson built over a 100 prototypes. I will just have to keep elevating thequality over the years, and keep adjusting the price fairly.

I did have hand made mold that was sort of ok, it had a classical neck width. Then i wanted to show people the body can alsoe be used for a modern gutiar with a smaller neck, so i converted it. That did not go how i wanted to, the neck became boxy.

You should not convert a mould but make a new mold from a plug. I did not have money for a new plug and mold, and in the end the decicion to convert the mold ruined the mold... That mold was also build almost 3 years ago in a time when i did not have the knowledge. If i build a new mold it will have high heat resistant resin, nice thick walls, reinforced skeleton, resin flow chanels, a silicone heating blanked on the back and a double cavity for the reusable vacuumbag seal.


That guitar in the picture looks gorgeous btw. ^_^