The dance between neck relief and saddle height

[Quickstep192]

I have a relatively new baritone guitar that I'm trying to lower the action. It's a really long scale (27.5") with really fat strings (.014-.070). Between the long scale and the fat strings, there's a tendency to buzz if the action gets too low. But, set up the way it is, the height of the action makes it hard to press those fat strings down, especially up the neck. Bar chords are veritably impossible, so I'm interested in having a go at lowering the action.

I know that if I lower the saddle, I'll need to add some relief in the neck, but I'm not sure how much and wondering if there's any science to this process before I start tinkering.

I'm interested in your professional wisdom, possibly including "if you have to ask these questions, you should see a professional"


Thanks

[bnjp]

You always need to adjust the truss rod first before touching the saddle.

How much relief do you currently have? On a Baritone acoustic, I would shoot for somewhere around .012". Your action is gonna be determined by how you play, so my advice is to take a little bit at a time off of the saddle. *Generally* you can determine how much lower you want it at the 12th fret (measured from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string), then double that # to determine how much to take off the saddle. This is all assuming the nut action and the relief is set correctly

All that said, you would have money well spent by getting professional setup.

Bryan

[Ned Milburn]

The longer the scale length, the greater relief necessary to avoid buzzing, since longer scale strings will vibrate with a greater arc (if arc is an appropriate word) than shorter scale strings.

Any fret misalignment will accentuate buzzing when fretting notes on frets that are lower height than the next higher number fret.

That said, probably a couple business cards of relief should be fine. I usually suggest to people as a rule of thumb to have about the width of a 1st or 2nd string worth of relief for optimum playability. There is never an EXACT measurement to be given, because differences in playing style (hardness of string striking) and differences in guitars (frets, movement of the top) will determine the final optimum setup for each player on each of his/her guitars.

[John Arnold]

I know that if I lower the saddle, I'll need to add some relief in the neck

You have it backwards. Generally, the lower the action, the less relief is needed. That is because lower action restricts the size of the string vibration envelope, which reduces the curvature.
Proper relief is achieved when the tendency to buzz is the same over the whole length of the fingerboard.
Too little relief = more buzzing near the nut.
This is most obvious when the neck is dead straight (zero relief) or when the beck is back-bowed.
Too much relief = more buzzing near the body.
This will occur if you go to extremes when lowering the action and adding relief simultaneously.

[B. Howard]

Yep, longer scale length equals more tension on a given gauge of string for a set pitch. More tension means less relief is need to accommodate the vibrational envelope.

[arie]

Originally Posted by Quickstep192

I have a relatively new baritone guitar that I'm trying to lower the action. It's a really long scale (27.5") with really fat strings (.014-.070). Between the long scale and the fat strings, there's a tendency to buzz if the action gets too low. But, set up the way it is, the height of the action makes it hard to press those fat strings down, especially up the neck. Bar chords are veritably impossible, so I'm interested in having a go at lowering the action.

I know that if I lower the saddle, I'll need to add some relief in the neck, but I'm not sure how much and wondering if there's any science to this process before I start tinkering.

I'm interested in your professional wisdom, possibly including "if you have to ask these questions, you should see a professional"


Thanks

do you have any experience working with your hands or doing anything mechanical? as you have not stated, i will not assume. if so, then the advice posted so far is relevant and correct.

if not, then a decent set-up person with long scale experience should be able to handle this fairly easily provided the initial assessment is correct.

[Quickstep192]

Yes, I have some experience working with my hands building furniture and working on cars, but when it comes to tinkering with my guitars, I get nervous!

[rick-slo]

Every acoustic guitar I have played is harder to barre up the neck beyond the seventh fret or so than it is on the lower frets.
Being the least invasive and most reversible the first thing I would try is decreasing the neck relief a bit. Leaving the saddle height as is, the relief adjustment will have more effect up the neck than down near the nut. If still playability issues you may have to do other things. You could perhaps go down a little in string gauge and/or lower the action more and just play with a more gentle touch.

[redir]

FWIW I like to get the neck as dead flat as possible using the truss rod under string tension. Then lower the saddle. Then lower the nut if applicable, sometimes it even needs to be raised. Then dial in the relief to take out any minimal buzz.

I never view relief as being necessary but rather optional. In most cases it works for the better though. But I like to start of flat as a sort of zero based reference and then go from there. All this assumes your neck is in good condition. If you have body joint hump or twisting or any other issues then most of the above is out the window.