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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#17
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#18
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https://www.youtube.com/@stevereinthal/videos |
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#20
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Summing to mono is a mindless downstream inevitability that is out of your control and doesn't care a whit about your preferences. It will happen, be it from an inept digitizing employee at a streaming service, an inexperienced local DJ, a poorly-adjusted computer sound card, a person who inserts the headphone jack halfway, a shorted input cable, the playback from a mono iPhone speaker, a broadcast received on an older mono TV, or an unaware user who hits the mono button on a receiver. It is true that it happens less these days, but it still... just happens.
All that is left to you is to decide whether or not you want to be represented by a fundamentally flawed product when the time comes. Bob
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"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' " Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website) |
#21
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You're more experienced with this stuff than most of us here, Bob. But I'd hazard a guess that the issues you point out are more critical for band mixes than solo acoustic instrumental guitar (which is what I think Trevor is doing), would you agree? In the worst case, with a band, you might lose something entirely, like a vocal, if it isn't done correctly for mono.
But for solo guitar, using spaced pairs, which isn't strictly 100% mono-compatible, is extremely common. I wouldn't suggest anyone try to be particularly mono *incompatible*, but whether a spaced pairs recording, done properly for solo guitar, would sound less than perfect in corner cases, like being played over an old TV, wouldn't stop me from recording a CD. The issue of end users doing stuff to your well-recorded tracks is interesting, I wonder how you deal with it?. Listening in mono almost seems like the least of the worries these days. I wouldn't be surprised if these days, there are more people who have their home stereos mis-wired to be out phase than those who listen in mono, for example. I do like MS, as it's not only mono-compatible (which is not to say the sound doesn't change when switched to mono - everything narrows and you lose the "air" of the stereo field), but it also creates a nice focus, probably due to the phase coherency. Again, Trevor, I'd suggest posting some examples of what you're doing with MS, and I'm sure lots of people here can help. It's pretty simple once you get it, and it will address any mono-compatibility concerns.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#22
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More to the point, people doing serious, or at least semi serious, listening to music recorded in stereo will be doing there listening in stereo. If there was no sacrificing of the advantages of the stereo sound trying to be mono compatible (a fully mono compatible stereo recording is in effect mono from the get go (other than MS recording I suppose, but that narrows the stereo sound choices considerably)) then it would not be an issue. Even a mono recording with stereo reverb added post recording gets wacked listened to in mono. Tradeoffs occur in most every choice one makes in the world.
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
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Other than that, I shop the mixes through four different monitor systems (UREI 813Cs and 811Cs, Genlec 1032as, a JBL LSR array, a Bag End array, and Auratones) and a really nice Harmon Kardon car system. I make the stuff as mono-compatible as possible and then the bad stuff just happens. At the beginning of 5.1 surround mixing everyone had to learn the hard lesson that users will find a way, often the most embarrassing way, to mess with things. The first big one was discovering that band mixes with only the vocals in the center speaker allowed the user to disconnect the other speakers and hang the vocalist out to dry as a solo. Woop. Got over that one quickly when the vocalists screamed. Quote:
Bob
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"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' " Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website) |
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For the hearing impaired.
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Thanks to everyone who has responded to my initial question and made this another fascinating and informative thread. Not to sound patronizing, but this section of the AGF has been and continues to be a crucial resource for me. Over the next few weeks it is my intention to post some clips of my home recording efforts and I'll be looking for as much input as you're all willing to share. Trevor |
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Interesting. Sounds like you have some specific target audience for your CD? I'm not sure any micing technique really addresses a 1 ear'd listener, other than actual mono. MS would be reasonable, if the listener is actually summing to mono, tho you'd want to be sure the mid mic actually sounds good by itself. I've never recorded a mono recording I actually liked.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
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Other places where mono playback is important - sound systems at clubs and bars (including jukeboxes); most PA systems - although many are stereo compatible (mixers and separate power amps for L + R), its common practice to run them in mono so that the soundscape doesn't vary depending on where you are in the place. This would also include if you use an MP3 player for backing tracks or for break music through your Loudbox, too.
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Mike My music: https://mikebirchmusic.bandcamp.com 2020 Taylor 324ceBE 2017 Taylor 114ce-N 2012 Taylor 310ce 2011 Fender CD140SCE Ibanez 12 string a/e 73(?) Epiphone 6830E 6 string 72 Fender Telecaster Epiphone Dot Studio Epiphone LP Jr Chinese Strat clone Kala baritone ukulele Seagull 'Merlin' Washburn Mandolin Luna 'tatoo' a/e ukulele antique banjolin Squire J bass |
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Bob, thanks for the additional details. I frequently check the mono button, use phase correlation meters, among others, when setting up mics, and keep a ruler handy. I have a monitor placed right in front of my playing positions with a pile of meters that I can monitor, even keeping an eye on them as I record to make sure I don't shift in my seat or whatever. But when I used spaced pairs, that of course still ends up with some comb filtering when mono'd. I just can't imagine it mattering, as long as I'm reasonably phase-aligned, in any environment in which my music would be played. It sounds like Trevor is going for some specific listeners who hear differently, so that's a different story than most of our situations.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#29
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It may or may not sound "bad", you'll have to decide. You'll most certainly hear a change in tone, since it's not possible to have spaced pairs on a guitar be perfectly in phase - the phase differences are part of what created the stereo cue's in spaced pair mic setups. You can reduce or mostly eliminate this by using other mic placements, like XY, ORTF, NOS, or MS. But with spaced pairs, the phase differences are a feature, they're why you would choose to use spaced pairs, because it creates a spacious sound, using phase differences to enhance the stereo effect. MS summed to mono also works based on phase cancellation, but due to the way MS works, what happens is the right and left "sides" that come from the side figure 8 mic completely cancel, with no comb filtering. So you're left with only the signal from the mid mic, as if you recorded to mono. So if you do that, and expect to be played back in mono, you'll want to pay special attention to making sure that mono mid mic sounds good all by itself.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar Last edited by Doug Young; 12-02-2015 at 04:19 PM. |
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Suffice to say I'm trying to cover the bases by aiming to make recordings with a wide stereo image for those with the hearing capacity and available sound systems to enjoy it while at the same time taking into account that many "seniors" no longer have either. My repertoire tends towards classical pieces and traditional instrumental folk song arrangements. No surprise then that my audience tends to have even whiter hair than I do.
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acoustic guitar, miking technique, recording |
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