best bang for the buck amp or powered speaker

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by dannyg1

I forgot to say that in my experience, small analog mixers are terrible sounding front ends that aren't good choices as professional tools. I see that many people here use them and seem happy but if you try something outside of the MI world, the differences are huge. In the low priced and smaller mixer world, digital is the only real option.

I worked my way through a slew of smaller mixers when I was building my PA and it wasn't until I got my Yamaha 01V that I truly understood what a good mixer even is. Once you use something like that, you'll find a much more reliably good sounding system,that isn't at the mercy of pitifully bad power in bars/clubs. The was are fully parametric everywhere, you can send signal to multiple places easily and the Mic pre's and reverbs are in another solar system soundwise.

Originally Posted by kevinp

Danny1; really, I didn't know small mixers were that bad, any suggestions on a decent one at a decent price?

I get what dannyg1 is saying when it comes to larger shows that need a complex system and/or a complex mix with maybe a full sized band and lots of instruments, several monitor feeds, maybe subs, and some more than moderate volume, but for a small local acoustic ensemble gig in a cafe, bar, restaurant, or community center, etc., there is absolutely nothing wrong or even limiting about a small mixer like a ZED10fx or a Soundcraft EFX8 or MFXi8, etc.

Small digital mixers now offer some very attractive features, but most of what they can do is unnecessary for a couple of guitarists who sing and who maybe have an upright bass player with them and/or a guy on cajon playing in a restaurant or cafe, etc. There's certainly no need for a high end digital mixer. Those new inexpensive digital mixers are worth considering for someone putting together a small PA right now because there are indeed some advantages--especially if there's some particular complexity that needs dealing with and would otherwise require a rack of processors. Being able to have someone in the house mixing from a tablet is itself a considerable advantage, for example, if you've got someone who can do it. But it's not like the capabilities of a small digital mixer are going to make a night and day difference in terms of basic sound quality over a ZED. And an act that can backline a speaker instead of using monitors or at most might need one basic monitor mix or a couple of small combo amps for that purpose doesn't need complex routing capabilities, let alone compression, gates, fully parametric EQ, signal delay for speakers at the back of a big hall, etc., and etc.

For an acoustic solo/duo/trio act in a small venue, a small analog mixer with maybe some modest, usable reverb and/or delay (if that's even necessary) is perfectly adequate. Used correctly, and assuming a decent and properly deployed speaker or set of speakers, it's certainly not going to sound "terrible." It will actually sound very good.

Louis

[jonfields45]

As a retired EE and lifelong performer, I find it very hard to believe anyone could hear a difference in a properly setup modern mixer, cheap or expensive. The specs are pretty clearly beyond our ability to hear. But maybe someone else can hear something, but no venue will be quiet enough that it would matter anyway (if you are commenting on the size of the power supply, and not its specs, then you are hearing with your eyes). I did do direct comparisons between a K10, SRM350V3 and DBR10 at my home and thought it was impossible for me to choose a winner (they were all set flat, 4 feet off my basement floor, blasting "Hey 19" at a level I could not tolerate too long). As an old man I went with the lightest one. The nice thing about a single speaker high and behind, is it is main and monitor. You control the relative "monitor" volume with how high you place the speaker (higher is quieter and a must for me at an outdoor gig).

[dannyg1]

Jon, it may just be that my background in both live sound and ultra high end audio has spoiled me and made me think I hear the difference but I'm positive enough to cart all that craps around when I'm running a full PA in smaller bars and clubs. And Louis, most smaller mixers (Allen&heath makes small mixers that cost. I'm not sure that putting a ZED against a Harbinger qualifies as a fight) do sound pretty terrible, at least more often than they sound good.

It's the smaller digital mixers that I'm recommending. The QSC Touchmix, Behringers X-air 12, Soundcraft's AI12 and maybe the Mackie iPad mixer, these have at least enough eq power to better control the things that make those small bar systems sound raw. Their reverbs are powerful too, with adjustable internal parameters per reverb.

It's true that you can get by with a Mackie DFX8 and make a fairly good sound, that can even be surprisingly good sometimes. It will never sound nearly as good, as consistently as a Yamaha o1v96 or a behringer X32 or a QSC Touchmix. I've owned a ton of of these littler mixers. I tried and I tried to like them and then I started getting over the size laziness and bought first an A&H Mixwiz, then a small format professional Soundcraft board and then the Yamaha o1V. Once I started using the Yamaha I'd finally found the sound I needed and it's consistently great, solid and big sounding.

I keeping eyeing the QSC touchmix and will probably try it out soon but I'm not really doing the full on, big PA shows now and I'm not sure I want to get used to having the power of the touchmix on the streets .

[dannyg1]

On the hearing with your eyes vs specs comment :

There's a reason that pre's like Manley, Grace , Isa, Avalon, and on and on exist. Their specs are fully competitive with the pre's on that $79 Harbinger mixer and yet, *everyone* records and many perform with the expensive ones. Do you think that none of them can hear a difference?

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by dannyg1

And Louis, most smaller mixers (Allen&heath makes small mixers that cost. I'm not sure that putting a ZED against a Harbinger qualifies as a fight) do sound pretty terrible, at least more often than they sound good.

No quarrel with the first part and the parenthesis--maybe the last part is a little exaggerated. In any case, I wasn't suggesting people use bargain equipment (unless it's all they can afford as a start and for light use). I'm not a sound pro, but I've had the opportunity to use some pro-level equipment on a few occasions both as a musician and running sound, and that was enough to make me understand that there's a difference (and a reason why at a certain professional level it's not just worth it but necessary to invest in that). My only point was that for the kind of gigs that most--although not all--of the people on this forum play (and the type of music) there's nothing wrong with a decent quality small MI analog mixer like a ZED. Perfectly fine tool for the job.

Louis

[martingitdave]

This has been an interesting thread. However, I think the OP was looking for something in the $500 range. A little research suggests that the cheapest of the quality digital mixers discussed are upwards of $900. Add the cost of comparable speakers, and we are now 4 times his budget. Since his baseline was a Fishman Mini, I would say a simple analog mixer with effects and a powered speaker would provide sufficient quality to rival the combo amp. The more compact all-in-one systems are also in this range. The quality of PA equipment Danny mentions is, without a doubt excellent. But, the budget dictates the solution. He's looking for value. The 80/20 rules applies (my loose interpretation, at least, for my fellow engineers.) 80% of the sound quality and capability for 20% of the cost.


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[jonfields45]

One last rant, when you go to GC to check out powered speakers, they need to have identical placement and the backside equalization needs to be set at least the same, if not flat. Height from the floor and separation from a wall behind the speaker make a huge difference in bass response.

When I was doing my QSC/Mackie/Yamaha shootout there were differences. The QSC has no hiss and is the only one you could use in a living room as a regular stereo speaker. The Mackie had quite a collection of weird digital noises. The Yamaha fan runs all the time, but is pretty quiet. The QSC has a nice auto on/off feature. I also use my speaker as my guest bass amp at home and in that application the QSC is the winner on noise and convenience. The QSC looks to have a better build quality.

But since I am my own roadie, the 23 lb DBR10 was the winner after I put some strategic felt on it's solo top side handle which was the worst handle of the bunch.

[MikeBmusic]

Martingitdave's reminder is a good one - the OP's price limit. Those digital mixers are almost twice his budget, and he still needs speakers!

Louis's comments are spot-on IMO as to the needs of an acoustic soloist or duo for a small mixer and powered speaker(s).
I'd advise getting a mixer with built-in reverb (at least) and as many channels as you can afford - a duo will need 2 mic + 2 instrument inputs, at least.
I've been using a Mackie ProFX and think the sound is very good when dialed in correctly. There's a new Mackie Mix12FX, I have no experience with, but its half the price. The cheapest A+H with FX is about $300.

For the powered speaker, shop for used otherwise you may have to settle for something you will switch to floor wedge monitor use when you get some better main speakers.

[buzzardwhiskey]

Stretching to $600 or so, here are my suggestions...

Fishman Loudbox Artist $550
Schertler Jam 100 $599
Yamaha MG10 $150 + Yamaha DBR10 $400

[ricdoug]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

AG 200 or 300 from Carvin. Nice amps. I can play anything from bass to uke through my AG300. Vocals sound great.

With Carvin's (made in the USA right here in San Diego's North County) AG200 or AG300 are no brainers, here. No need for a separate mixer. They're currently on sale for Saint Paddy's:

AG200 for $425:

http://www.carvinaudio.com/collectio...products/ag200

AG300 for $510:

http://www.carvinaudio.com/collectio...products/ag300

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wmCGpuC-Kk

Both will power an extension speaker for more coverage. As you know, they are priced well below their true competition and are built with robust components and thick circuit boards for long lasting, reliable road use.

Features

- Light weight, compact design
- 200w output (250w at 4 ohms)
- Designed for acoustic electric as well as bass instruments
- 3 Channels: 2 Inst piezo/magnetic inputs, mic/inst inputs
- 1/8" jack Stereo input
- 3 balanced XLR inputs - one for each channel
- Hi-Z input switch
- Input gain switch
- True 48V phantom power (for condenser mics)
- Active LO & HI tone controls for each CH
- Parametric EQs on Channels 1 & 2
- Resonant-style midrange filter for feedback control
- Parametric EQ deep cut allows control over acoustic feedback
- Dual DSP - echo, reverb & chorus
- Effects 1 or 2 for each CH, optional FS22 footswitch controlled
- Master Level controls the overall level, excludes Direct Out
- Master Effects Loop
- DI Direct Out XLR with level control
- Tuner/Headphone output
- External Speaker jack for 8 ohm load
- Pole mount for commercially available speaker stands
- Exclusive "lock-in" AC cord prevents accidental disconnect
- Designed and manufactured by Carvin in the USA

[roylor4]

I have heard nothing but good stuff about the Carvin gear but don't have any personal experience with them.

I would like to present another option - Samson products. They were originally just knockoffs of the Yamaha Stagepas series. I have owned the 308i for 5 years and it offers a lot of options as far as inputs and features.

They have small, single speaker units and ultra small combo PA for as little as $299 (150 watts). These have phantom power as well. You could use these for multiple people/small band situation easily (we are a duo).

The downside is there are no acoustic specific effects such as chorus, delay etc. They may not be a perfect fit but if you use pedals and go straight into the board there is a lot you can use them for.

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by kevinp

As the title says, and I would like to stay under 500$. For playing small gigs and jams I think a fisherman artist or mini would work, but now I read about these powered speakers and using those for a amp. Which is great because down the road, or you were going to play a larger gig you could expand and get another speaker, any thoughts? I mostly play rhythm and sing

Originally Posted by kevinp

Sorry, I guess I did say 500$ , there's a lot of choices out there in that price range, and I know you get what you pay for, but I was wondering if anyone has accually tried any powered speakers in that price range.
But the big question is do they sound as good as the 5-6-700 $
ones.
I don't want to get some honky sounding speakers

Kevinp,

I think you need to visit your local pro-sound dealer(vs a "music store"), and see first-hand what they have to offer. Setting an unrealistically low price as the starting-point for your search, is not a good idea. Go and listen for yourself, compare,,,, find out about reliability, after-sale service, etc. Once you've narrowed it down to a few acceptable options, you'll be better served for your future endeavor.(building upon and expanding your system). If you're going to build,,, start with a solid platform.

[dannyg1]

The Behringer x-air12 and the Soundcaft ai12 are $300 each .An EON 10 is around $450.
As I said to start a basic Loudbox Mini (329) from Sweetwater with the Sennheiser 835 pack is a bargain and a solid sound. Unbeatable at the price point in my experience ( I've heard that the TC Helicon Voice play 150 fx is competitive with the mini, but I've never heard it).

The best choice in the budger is between a loudbox artist (same pack deal). Unless, of course; you want to start building la PA.

[Guitar Moose]

Id recommend a Yamaha mixer with a powered Behringer PA/Speaker. Sounds great on a limited budget and will last a long time. Buy a speaker stand and you are in business for under $400! We have a B215D Behringer for the shop and it works great.

Happy Strumming

[kevinp]

Lots of excellent suggestions. Thanks guys, these powered speakers are new to me, I'm in my 60's now and have not played out in . A long time.
Back in the 70's & 80's we had Peavey equipment, a cs 800 power amp, sp2 and or sp 3 speakers and a couple monitors nothing fancy ,but it sure sounded good.
Now I might do something on a small scale, with small equipment. Lite weight, its amazing the sound out of smaller equipment.
I thought about something like the Carvin, or the fishman but getting something that could also be turned into a p.a. sounds inviting too.