X-y

[ukejon]

Do you have to do 90 degree angle of the mics in such a close proximity setup or can you aim more directly at guitar (even if that is only 60 or 70 degrees).

[Fran Guidry]

As you reduce that angle you get closer to mono. But you can do anything you want.

Fran

[ukejon]

Thanks Fran. The polar pattern is pretty wide on my Shure mics, so probably not a big issue.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by ukejon

Do you have to do 90 degree angle of the mics in such a close proximity setup or can you aim more directly at guitar (even if that is only 60 or 70 degrees).

Hi uj...

As Fran suggests, you can do anything you like.

As a recordist, I've discovered the people who originated mic techniques we accept today as 'established' processes (X/Y being one, A/B or mid-side) were explorers and we benefit by just replicating what they instituted and implemented.

I'm pretty anal about not creating mis matches that when I record A/B, so I actually use a sewing tape measure to measure how far each mic is from the body/focus-spot at each end of the pattern. I also write down the distance for future overdubs or punch-ins.

Keeps recordings from suffering ill-effects of phase issues etc.

There are a lot of diagrams and photos 'out there' as to how serious recordists situate their mics.

I was blown away last year to see a picture from the studio of a player I appreciate his self-made recordings and discover he sets up 7 pairs of mics (all recording simultaneously) at different distances from the guitar.

He selects the best matched set(s) when he's editing.

How close proximity are you using? Which mics are you using?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I'm pretty anal about not creating mis matches that when I record A/B, so I actually use a sewing tape measure to measure how far each mic is from the body/focus-spot at each end of the pattern. I also write down the distance for future overdubs or punch-ins.

I know a guy who uses laser pointers :-) Personally, I skip the measurements, and just use level and phase meters to make sure the mics are balanced and as in-phase as I can make them. It seems to me that with all the variations of sound coming from different parts of the guitar, measuring distances may not guarantee very much - I'm not sure where on the guitar I'd actually measure from since the sound comes from everywhere - tho it's certainly a good starting point. I did used to have a piece of cardboard cut for 110 degrees for ORTF, so I could position the mics that way consistently. But again, the angle isn't cast in stone.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

...the angle isn't cast in stone.

Hi Doug...

Inside my head I "see" the X/Y as a big waffle cone shape with the tip of the cone pointing back at me, and the sides/top encompassing a limited area of the guitar (or other source) I'm 'aiming' at.

I personally envision that the further back I move it, the larger area it encompasses/records. I try to keep my X/Y arrays (and A/B for that matter) situated at right angles with my source.

I can't prove any of this scientifically.

[rick-slo]

Stereo recording with the mikes at an even distance from the guitar is not an important issue, and in fact limits your flexibility in creating tonal variations. You can deal with timing issues post recording. Of course I do find being in the ball park necessary so that the effects of room reflections are about even in the two mikes.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Doug...

Inside my head I "see" the X/Y as a big waffle cone shape with the tip of the cone pointing back at me, and the sides/top encompassing a limited area of the guitar (or other source) I'm 'aiming' at.

I personally envision that the further back I move it, the larger area it encompasses/records. I try to keep my X/Y arrays (and A/B for that matter) situated at right angles with my source.

I can't prove any of this scientifically.

Any visualization that works for you is great! I tend to only focus on the result, and rely on listening to the playback, as well as what my meters tell me about levels, phase, etc. If it sounds right and looks weird, that's ok with me :-)

[ukejon]

How close proximity are you using? Which mics are you using?

With X-Y my setup is to be about 10" from the guitar with a matched pair of Shure KSM 137 mics. Trying to catch lower bout and somewhere around 12th fret.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ukejon

With X-Y my setup is to be about 10" from the guitar with a matched pair of Shure KSM 137 mics. Trying to catch lower bout and somewhere around 12th fret.

I've never had much luck with either of those positions. The 12-fret is the one everyone recommends, but "most" people are talking about strumming a guitar in a mix context. Laurence Juber seems to use the lower bout setup, at least in some photos I've seen. I've had the best luck putting them right in front of the soundhole, but raised, to be about even with the top of the guitar, at the waist. Adjust the height to taste, and to avoid soundhole boom. The other positions always seem tonally unbalanced to me, but this puts the mics squarely balanced on the guitar, so you get a nice even sound. If you try it, let me know if it works for you.

[ukejon]

Will do, Doug. Thanks. The 12th fret position can sound a bit phasey to my ears...just not right.

[Dave Keir]

Great thread. I've been using X/Y for years now. I use KM-184s about 10" away pointing at the neck / body joint. It can sound a bit tight and I cheat sometimes after the event to widen it some. But not to have think about phase issues is key.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Dave Keir

Great thread. I've been using X/Y for years now. I use KM-184s about 10" away pointing at the neck / body joint. It can sound a bit tight and I cheat sometimes after the event to widen it some. But not to have think about phase issues is key.

Being a broad sound source a guitar is out of phase with itself at any given location you can put one mike. If we heard with one ear then one mike would better match what we hear live. With X/Y the mikes are relatively in phase with each other compared to non-coincident mikes. The guitar itself is still out of phase at each mike. Spaced mic'ing better enables the brain to roll over at least some of the phase mess into directional clues and ambiance..