Mid Side recording

[always guitar]

Thanks for the last tip - that makes total sense.
In this mix the levels are really pretty even so I think we're talking EQ. The ribbon picks up some stuff way down low.
To be frank, I am not hearing what you're hearing in terms of the pull to the left. I'm going to mix the last 2 with a high pass filter on the side. I'll be back.
Let's have some fun.

AG

[always guitar]

Wow. I can totally control the width with a HPF. This is with a high pass on the side at E3 (166hz).

https://soundcloud.com/frieda-calor/side-3-hpf/s-rHOpS

Good stuff Doug, you helped me think.

AG

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by always guitar

Wow. I can totally control the width with a HPF. This is with a high pass on the side at E3 (166hz).

https://soundcloud.com/frieda-calor/side-3-hpf/s-rHOpS

Good stuff Doug, you helped me think.

AG

That's certainly one of the benefits of MS. There are lots of plugins that convert a stereo signal to MS, do some processing the mids or sides individually and then reassemble. iZotope's Ozone, for example, lets you do just about anything in MS or stereo mode. You can compress the sides or mid separately, EQ them separately, and so on. I've never found a good use for those things on guitar, I usually go for a good sound with minimal processing, but I should explore that more, could be pretty powerful.

I'd have to listen again to the balance issue, maybe I was just hearing things. I find it hard to listen in soundcloud thru the browser - soundcloud tends to muck things up, I'm going thru the computer soundcard, and I can't use any tools to verify things like balance and phase.

[always guitar]

Once I applied the HPF, I could hear more what you are talking about. Basically the midrange is slightly left heavy, and when I go up to higher strings they are on the right. The bass was also left heavy, HPF helped that.
I can do any of the adjustments a plugin would do manually to this so I probably won't go there. I will look at the product page though. One never knows.

AG

[Doug Young]

Ozone doesn't operate directly on an MS signal, it's a "mastering" plugin that you usually use on the master bus for final tweaking. Since MS <-> Stereo is just a mathematical operation, you can go from a stereo mix to MS, do some operations in mid-side space, then convert back to stereo. Has nothing really to do with mid-side micing techniques. There are other plugins that may do the same sort of operations and never even tell you, it's just part of their processing strategy.

The plugin I find most handy for MS micing is just the free Voxengo MS decoder. Slap in on the MS track, select decode, and you're done. You can also encode a normal track to MS, and also use it to adjust the width of any track "inline" (It will take a stereo track, convert to MS, let you tweak the width by adjusting the mid and side levels, then convert back)

[always guitar]

Excellent exercise Doug - really helped me focus in on what it is I am trying to accomplish. When all is said and done, I just like the capture, and will work on that. My goal is not to be an audio engineer, I'm a guitarist. I need to be able to document things as they happen. That will have to do.
Once again, helping me think.

AG

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by always guitar

My goal is not to be an audio engineer, I'm a guitarist. I need to be able to document things as they happen. That will have to do.

Yeah, that's how it starts :-) Recording can certainly be a full time job or hobby in itself, but I don't really separate it from playing the guitar, myself. It's just part of creating music. The nice thing about recording solo guitar is that it's not really THAT hard, and you can be very focused. You're not learning about micing drum sets or mixing a full band. You're just learning how to coax a sound out of your instrument and capture it.

[always guitar]

Let me give some context to my last comment. I spent last night carefully compressing, EQing, etcetera and when all was said and done - I didn't really like the result.
I want to be a great tracking engineer, and a minimalist mixing engineer.

Here's what I have learned:
I like the side mic less loud than where I started.
I don't like compression.
The only EQs I am interested in are HPF and LPF.
Considering all the above, mic position is everything.

Great journey Doug, now off to the next one.

AG

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by always guitar

Considering all the above, mic position is everything.

Sounds like you've learned to be a good recording engineer :-)

When I first started trying to record guitar, I'd end up with half a dozen plugins on the track, and more on the master bus. Slowly, they mostly disappeared. These days, I generally use next to nothing, other than reverb. Maybe some HPF to knock of any low rumble below the guitar range. If I'm "self-mastering", I may add a tiny tough of compression - if can see the meters move, it's too much. If I'm having it mastered for a real release, I don't do that, let the mastering engineer deal with it. So, yeah, for acoustic guitar, mic positioning is what it's all about (if you look back, that what all my comments were aimed at, I think - getting the mic levels set up right and the side mic positioned so that you don't do any processing, not even doing the -3 or -6 thing on levels. It's just correct going in, based on the mic setup. If you get that step right, there's not much left to do.

[always guitar]

Right on.

Later this month I'm going to order a matched pair of omni capsules for my Oktavas. I will post a capture with the cardoid cap and the omni cap as the mid. A shootout of sorts.

AG

[Doug Young]

It'll be interesting to hear how the omni's work in that lively space. If you want another fun mic technique to play with once you get the omni's, check out the Jecklin Disk.

[always guitar]

Good idea - I'll give it a rip - I also intend to do a spaced pair, wasn't happy with my results last time. Playing around today I have found that if I point the mics at the body join, the image is far more centered. Before I was almost centered on the sound hole. The mics are basically in Beatles position.
Eventually I am going to need to get a symmetrical figure 8 mic, like the Sennheiser MKH30. That will take one big if out of the equation, condensers also have a lot less self noise than ribbons.
For the record, this is a Guild GAD D-150 and the preamp is a Duet. I got the guitar in October which is when i started to play steel string seriously. It is definitely not MY guitar like the SG is, I also have a Jose Ramirez 2CWE that is fantastic. Someday I will get MY steel string, I played a Lowden at a local shop that just knocked me out, 5K though, so patience is in order.
I can do good work with the equipment I currently have so no complaints.

AG

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by always guitar

Good idea - I'll give it a rip - I also intend to do a spaced pair, wasn't happy with my results last time. Playing around today I have found that if I point the mics at the body join, the image is far more centered. Before I was almost centered on the sound hole.

The way I do MS is usually centered on the guitar, raised above the soundhole, almost even with the top of the waist. Probably going to vary based on guitar, acoustics, player, and personal taste, but that works for me. I've never had much luck with 14th fret position that's so often recommended - that means one side is all body, and the other is all neck, so I can never get it to sound balanced with MS, XY, or ORTF.

For spaced pairs, I've used the 14th fret and just below the bridge successfully, tho the sound tends to be a bit unstable. I've had better luck with putting the mics roughly 15 inches apart, about the height of the soundhole, and just position myself in the middle, fine tuning by watching the meters. You can hear that sound in Scott Whigham's "Library" project: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=289290

We didn't do an MS demo, tho.

[always guitar]

Moved the mics about 2' from the wall, mic placement as described above.

Thoughts?
Here's mine: definitely less boominess. Feels pretty centered to me although it is becoming apparent that it is inches, nay millimeters that will make the difference.

I think the non-symmetrical nature of the figure 8 is causing me to compensate in ways I didn't really want to. C'est la vie. For now.

https://soundcloud.com/frieda-calor/...2-feet/s-QviFV

There is no processing. I'm only going to post captures from now on.

AG

[always guitar]

I gotta admit - I like the wool.
I just listened to the first recording and the last. It's my space, it's how it sounds, I need to be honest about it even though any recording is inherently dishonest because the person playing it is not there. Yet another conundrum.
I am going with technique #1 with a minor adjustment. -3 on the sides.

AG