"Spanish Heel" Neck Reset?

[Zigeuner]

Originally Posted by redir

Another method for setting the neck on a Spanish heal is to remove the upper portion of the back, set the angle and re-glue the back. I've done that once and probably never will again, it's a real PIA. I now advocate for the bolt on conversion since it keeps the neck feel the same. But some customers don't like bolts in there guitars so they get the shim or if it's a minor case and the fret board is thick enough a simple refret with planed angle in the fret board.

The method you describe here will certainly fix the angle of the neck. Unfortunately, with a Spanich neck heel, since the sides are let into the neck at 90 degrees or so to the fingerboard when the guitar was buit, once the angle is corrected, there is an odd angle to the sides where they enter the neck. The back also needs to be trimmed to math that new angle.

This is similar to the so-called "California neck reset" on a guitar with a standard dovetail and neck block where the back is loosened and the neck block moved.

I'm pretty sure that builders who used (or sitll use) the Spanish Neck Heel design are not thinking about a future neck reset.

I've done several neck resets for myself on my own instruments but always on Martin guitars. I can't imagine doing one on a guitar with a Spanish neck heel.

The other methods you mention, bolting the neck on or planing the fingerboard would be far more desirable,

[redir]

Originally Posted by Zigeuner

The method you describe here will certainly fix the angle of the neck. Unfortunately, with a Spanich neck heel, since the sides are let into the neck at 90 degrees or so to the fingerboard when the guitar was buit, once the angle is corrected, there is an odd angle to the sides where they enter the neck. The back also needs to be trimmed to math that new angle.

This is similar to the so-called "California neck reset" on a guitar with a standard dovetail and neck block where the back is loosened and the neck block moved.

I'm pretty sure that builders who used (or sitll use) the Spanish Neck Heel design are not thinking about a future neck reset.

I've done several neck resets for myself on my own instruments but always on Martin guitars. I can't imagine doing one on a guitar with a Spanish neck heel.

The other methods you mention, bolting the neck on or planing the fingerboard would be far more desirable,

Yup you have to push the sides in. It really doesn't take a whole lot to get it right though. But yes then you have to rerout for bindings and like I said it's a PIA. With a Japanese saw I can have the neck off in 15 minutes

I have a spade bit that I filed a cutting edge on, opposite side of the actual cutting edge. I then drill 1/4 inch bolt holes through the block and then insert the spade bit through the sound hole so that the shaft goes through the pre-drilled holes. Then I mount a drill to it and drill out a counter sing for the bolt heads. It looks real clean and factory done on the inside. To get the intonation right I then glue up a shim to take place of the saw cut trying to match the wood as close as possible.

It's really a very simple job, even easier then a dove tail reset in some respects.

[Zigeuner]

Originally Posted by redir

Yup you have to push the sides in. It really doesn't take a whole lot to get it right though. But yes then you have to rerout for bindings and like I said it's a PIA. With a Japanese saw I can have the neck off in 15 minutes

I have a spade bit that I filed a cutting edge on, opposite side of the actual cutting edge. I then drill 1/4 inch bolt holes through the block and then insert the spade bit through the sound hole so that the shaft goes through the pre-drilled holes. Then I mount a drill to it and drill out a counter sing for the bolt heads. It looks real clean and factory done on the inside. To get the intonation right I then glue up a shim to take place of the saw cut trying to match the wood as close as possible.

It's really a very simple job, even easier then a dove tail reset in some respects.

That's a perfectly acceptable repair.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by redir

I have a spade bit that I filed a cutting edge on, opposite side of the actual cutting edge. I then drill 1/4 inch bolt holes through the block and then insert the spade bit through the sound hole so that the shaft goes through the pre-drilled holes. Then I mount a drill to it and drill out a counter sing for the bolt heads. It looks real clean and factory done on the inside. To get the intonation right I then glue up a shim to take place of the saw cut trying to match the wood as close as possible.

Call me obtuse, but I didn't understand one word of that.

Where do these "bolts" go and to what do they fasten? Are you actually talking about "screws" rather than "bolts" ?

A bolt has to have a nut to attach to, where is the nut ? And what's with the reverse grinding of the spade bit? Why not just put the drill into reverse rotation if you want to create a counterbore ? Or better still, use a Forstner bit and forget all about spade bits.

[jeff crisp]

redir, until I make up a forstner styled bit I'll use your trick with the spade bit,thanks.


Murray check out the Frank Ford tutorial through the link provided by Brian (Henderson is go) on page 1 of this thread. Its on page 4, a reversed forstner bit head that cuts backwards. You are pulling the cutting head towards yourself instead of pushing away from you as you would with any normal drilling action. You'll be able to answer your own questions after viewing.

Jeff.

[Howard Klepper]

This is called a reverse counterbore or reverse spotfacer. They are available from the usual industrial supply houses such as MSC or McMaster-Carr.

[jeff crisp]

Im not surprised you know the name Howard, and thankyou.

Jeff.

[redir]

Interesting. I didn't know there was a bit like that. I was just scratching my head one day trying to solve that problem and saw the solution in a spade bit. I've done about 5 conversions with it but knowing there is a real tool for the job I may just go ahead and get one for the next time.

No worries murrmac123 some of this stuff is hard to explain in words and I never was much of a word smith. But yes look at Frank Fords web page for details. The bolts get screwed into little threaded brass or steel inserts that are fastened into the face of the heal.

[murrmac123]

Aah, now I see it ... (obviously I hadn't read the Frank Ford link when I posted above) Redir's reverse spade bit grind strikes me as a very ingenious and workable alternative to a reverse spotfacer.

There is no question but that this would be the way to go with this guitar ...Howard's "Californian neck reset" would work although I shudder to think what the end result would look like, but hey, if it plays Ok ...???

The one issue I would have is that if you are going to do it Frank's way, then why not go the whole hog and remove the heel cap, drill through the heel and glue in a 1/2" dowel, and then, instead of using threaded inserts into end grain, use 1/4" hanger bolts, and tighten the nuts from inside the box ? A far stronger job IMO, (I have a 40 year long aversion to inserting threaded inserts into end grain, and yeah, yeah I know that's how Taylor do it etc etc etc ...)

The other point I would make is that Frank's method of cutting the neck joint with a bone saw is delightfully dated ...(it was written in 1998 after all...) Nowadays, the tool for the job would be the Fein Multimaster, which is the most amazing innovation in tool design since the invention of the electric motor ...

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

the Fein Multimaster, which is the most amazing innovation in tool design since the invention of the electric motor ...

I think that honor goes to the square-hole drill bit, or maybe the Festool Domino, using a round cutter to create flat-bottomed slots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5AzbDJ7KYI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALiqAXiTQBg

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I think that honor goes to the square-hole drill bit, or maybe the Festool Domino, using a round cutter to create flat-bottomed slots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5AzbDJ7KYI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALiqAXiTQBg

LOL, Charles, I am delighted to see that you have a nicely ironic sense of humor ...

Actually, the Festool Domino is an amazing tool. Several of my neighbours on the industrial estate whereon I eke out my meagre existence are the proud possessors of such, and one of them owns the super duper heavy duty industrial model which can cut mortises up to 16mm width ...mind blowing to see it in action ...the days of the mortising machine are over IMO...

Nonetheless, for sheer innovative ingenuity (and of course versatility) , I would still vote in favor of the Multimaster ...

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

There is no question but that this would be the way to go with this guitar ...Howard's "Californian neck reset" would work although I shudder to think what the end result would look like, but hey, if it plays Ok ...???

No question about the right way to go with this guitar?! Guitar repair is not so easily rendered into absolutes. Especially by people who have never seen the guitar in question! There has been so far no mention (except by me) of the touchup problems with that "unquestionably" right method, and no description by Frank Ford or anyone else of the methods they use for fitting the sawn off neck to the sides with its heel cut back, shimming it for intonation, and then making it look like this never happened. All the accounts seem to stop after sawing the neck off and installing bolts, as if the rest was too obvious.

I believe it was John Arnold who introduced the term "California neck reset" to this thread, so I don't know why I would be said to own it or to have suggested it. I do not use that term myself, although I recognize the job to which it refers and must be one the few people left with experience at doing it. Of those who criticize it or say it will disfigure a guitar, 99% do so without ever having done one or examined a guitar on which it was competently done. Like most techniques, it has appropriate and inappropriate uses. I never recommended it for the OP's guitar, and would not, based on what I know about it so far. Your post above gives the impression I did, so I must correct that mistaken impression.

[murrmac123]

I do apologize, Howard, if I mistakenly conveyed the impression that you had advocated the "Californian neck reset" on this instrument, which I do realize you haven't, and I further accept that I am one of the 99% who have never seen this repair done, although I cannot visualize how it could be done without creating a visible and noticeable change of angle at the upper bout ... but maybe it doesn't , I defer to your expertise in this area.

I do, however, beg to differ about the relative difficulties of the subsequent touch up processes between the two methods, since the way I see it, the Frank Ford method is far less invasive than the "Californian reset" as long as you use a Multimaster. Frank's field surgery approach is guaranteed to leave masses of touch-up headaches (and intonation problems) but again, when he wrote this, the Multimaster hadn't even been invented.

Using very thin stainless shim shaped to the heel contour, and fixed to the upper bout with double sided tape for protection, it would be perfectly feasible to use the Fein Multimaster (with the appropriate fine (sic) blade) to cut through the heel from both sides without marking the finish on the upper bout in any way. (Obviously the fretboard tongue would have been loosened off in the conventional manner). Once the neck was off, it would be a relatively simple matter to chisel and sand off the minute amount of wood left, and touch up the finish on the upper bout to extend inwards past the witness line, so that there was no visible evidence once the neck was refitted (with the heel cut to the correct angles in all respects).

This process would also minimize any intonation problems, since due to the thinness of the kerf, the fulcral point would be just under the 14th fret, similar to a conventional dovetail reset. At worst, all that would be required would be a new saddle, or reprofiling of the existing one, if thick enough (and still with sufficient height).

Cosmetically, the only difference would be that the 14th fret would be marginally further in from the body/neck joint (by the thickness of the kerf). I doubt it would even be noticeable.

EDIT: There are, of course, oscillating tools other than the Fein Multimaster (and cheaper as well) which would get the job done.... the Fein is the top of the heap however, and will cope with anything you throw at it (and I have thrown a lot at mine ...)

[John Arnold]

Using very thin stainless shim shaped to the heel contour, and fixed to the upper bout with double sided tape for protection, it would be perfectly feasible to use the Fein Multimaster (with the appropriate fine (sic) blade) to cut through the heel from both sides without marking the finish on the upper bout in any way. (Obviously the fretboard tongue would have been loosened off in the conventional manner). Once the neck was off, it would be a relatively simple matter to chisel and sand off the minute amount of wood left, and touch up the finish on the upper bout to extend inwards past the witness line, so that there was no visible evidence once the neck was refitted (with the heel cut to the correct angles in all respects).

Exactly how many have you done?
I have done several of both methods, and I prefer the block slipping. I have also done cosmetic work on several of both types that were less expertly done, and I have found that the sawn-off necks are much harder to make invisible.
As far as the angle of the sides, the typical neck reset is about 1/32", which is very hard to see as 'off plumb' in an assembled guitar. And if you check a few with a square, you may find that on most guitars the sides are seldom perfectly perpendicular to the top anyway.

[redir]

I never heard of that method called California neck reset, where did that come from? It's probably of Spanish origin so if the called it the Bilbao neck reset I'd get it

Like I said I've done that method and I don't care for it. It does keep the original neck joint intact however and lots of customers would prefer that.

As for hiding the saw kerf with a shim it's not easy to match it perfectly, in fact on the resets I've done they are all visible to the discerning eye. I worked with one customer on this and we used a maple shim to match the maple binding and the lines looked kind of cool, at least intentional anyway.

murrmac123 some builders actually do use hangar bolts.